Ignorance regarding Waterloo Region on SSP

[WaterlooInvestor]

--

[Cambridgite]

Personally, I think it's mostly just jealousy. In a thread like "The Rising Stars" in particular, it's inevitable that it would bring out the worst. Saskatoon, Winnipeg and many others don't have the same prospects we have. But of course, the only way they can justify the decision to put KW on the back-burner is by making excuses for it.

I think KW is possibly the most hated city in Canada. It's so funny when Toronto forumers post a "we're so hated" thread and everyone from the rest of the country tells them they're wrong. If we did that, forumers from the rest of Canada would no doubt confirm it. And since this is SSP and people only care about what's old, existing, or tall, KW will always be under-appreciated. Moving in the right direction after years of urban neglect is not enough. Here, it's the has-beens that get all the praise. Just look at all the sprawl comments directed towards Calgary too. When people see a threat, they can't just treat it as competition and accept the fact that these "sprawl towns" are urbanizing more than their has-been cities.

[dunkalunk]

Relative to Toronto, Mississauga is a suburb. Worth noting.

[Greco Roman]

It's not just your city that is "underappreciated". Every city in Canada that isn't Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and Calgary is very much underappreciated. We then take the time to educate others that EVERY city in Canada is unique and has so much potential, and why their home town is great. Some just don't get it because they live in cities that are "stars" (again, WTF does that mean?) and proceed to wave their finger at everyone else. Then, those from the underappreciated cites get defensive and start taking jabbs at othera. Then it becomes an all-out "who's dick is the biggest?" vs. thread, and then everything goes to shit.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Canada is a very unpatriotic country. No one gives a rat's ass about anyone else except themselves. Arrogance and ignorance reign supreme. We don't support eachother; we bash the shit out of eachother. Am I the only one that thinks this is sad?

End rant.

[flar]

You think people hate/underappreciate KW more than Hamilton or Winnipeg? I always thought people liked KW. It has a good image. The only flak it catches is that it doesn't have a big city feel, and that's only among the people on these urban/skyscraper sites.

[Cambridgite]

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Canada is a very unpatriotic country. No one gives a rat's ass about anyone else except themselves. Arrogance and ignorance reign supreme. We don't support eachother; we bash the shit out of eachother. Am I the only one that thinks this is sad?

End rant.

You are sooooo correct. Yes, it is sad.

[Cambridgite]

Maybe it's because of the age group I'm in that I notice this stuff the most. Almost everyone my age wants to get the hell out ASAP. I'm not sure up in KW, but certainly in Cambridge. Many of the university students find it boring as hell too. While civic leaders, etc., like to brag about KW's strong economy and blah blah blah, the difficult time KW has in retaining people in their early to late 20s is a problem. The biggest obstacle our tech sector is facing right now is the shortage of workers and the fact that KW can not compete with places like Boston and San Fransisco in terms of lifestyle. It's basically families and seniors that are attracted here.

We are making respectable moves to try and accomodate ALL age demographics, but it's difficult when there's little history to work with and it will take years to catch up with most cities of similar size. Even myself, I hate suburbia and want to live somewhere a little more exciting. There are areas like Downtown Kitchener and Uptown Waterloo, which are okay (beats where I live now), but they just don't quite cut it. I'm very excited about everything going on here, but I'd rather leave to somewhere like Toronto or Montreal and come back when the city has matured to some degree.

Yes, I admit it. I don't like KW as much as I let on. But I DO want to see it mature into something worth coming back to. Am I crazy for having any faith in this sprawling conurbation?

[WaterlooInvestor]

--

[SteelTown]

It just annoys me when I say anything positive about Hamilton and others will simply say "Oh that's because Toronto helped". Toronto has to be labelled onto everything. Same as when people say Toronto is the reason for the tech/innovation of Waterloo.

Just ignore it really, the age has a lot to do with it. You're dealing with a lot of teenagers who never really stepped foot outside of their hometowns. Also Southern Ontario is the only region in Canada that has millions and millions living closely together so people don't quite understand how it all works. They assume since Toronto is the heart of the region, which it is, it's all because of Toronto and everything else a suburb. You could probably fit the UK in Southern Ontario yet you never hear Manchester is a suburb of London.

[flar]

Yeah, Toronto doesn't really have much to do with Hamilton or KW.
Mississauga, Vaughan, places like that are Toronto.

[Cambridgite]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

It just annoys me when I say anything positive about Hamilton and others will simply say "Oh that's because Toronto helped". Toronto has to be labelled onto everything. Same as when people say Toronto is the reason for the tech/innovation of Waterloo.

Just ignore it really, the age has a lot to do with it. You're dealing with a lot of teenagers who never really stepped foot outside of their hometowns. Also Southern Ontario is the only region in Canada that has millions and millions living closely together so people don't quite understand how it all works. They assume since Toronto is the heart of the region, which it is, it's all because of Toronto and everything else a suburb. You could probably fit the UK in Southern Ontario yet you never hear Manchester is a suburb of London.

No doubt. We should start up our own section and call it "Southern Ontario cities who are not Toronto", haha!

But the part I highlighted is so true. When you think about it, no urban region is as large or complex as the broader Toronto Region (aka the Greater Golden Horseshoe). The only other cities in Canada that have reasonable size satellites are Vancouver and Montreal, which have Abbotsford and Sherbrooke respectively. They still don't compare on the level of critical mass that places like KW or Hamilton have. Even in the Places to Grow document, they acknowledge the complexity of the Region and that it's not a simple situation of a single central city and its suburbs, but a region with multiple metropolitan areas with overlapping influences, to the point where there is almost nowhere that's a true rural economy. Let's say you have a spattering of isolated exurban development in far-northern Flamborough (unfortunately all too common). Where is IT a bedroom community of? Toronto? Hamilton? Guelph? Kitchener? I think it's safe to say that in many of these places, it's a bit of everything and there wasn't one single urban core that sparked its development. This confuses people in places like the praries where you have an isolated city surrounded by farms or some really small villages.

As to the whole UK thing...isn't it common for people in Europe to hop aboard a high-speed train and commute to a far away city? Yet somehow, these cities are not suburbs of one another. Hmm...maybe the world isn't so black and white after all.

[jeremy_haak]

I'm quite certain that every city in Canada perceives that it's the most hated. Except maybe Vancouver, I don't see much hate toward Vancouver.

I'm quite certain that 90% of people who comment on KW have never been, and of those that have, most have never been long enough to understand just how complicated the region actually is. It's really like the Greater Golden Horseshoe on a much smaller scale. Within Waterloo Region, I would say you have two cities - Kitchener-Waterloo and Cambridge. Kitchener-Waterloo is too integrated to really discern any difference, except with the two cores. Cambridge maintains a certain individuality, except it has three separate cores. Looking thirty years into the future, Guelph will be a big factor, and I'm quite confident that it will be part of a larger conurbation just like KW and Cambridge are now. It, at least, is monocentric, and its core is my favourite of the area.

Most people's assessment of Waterloo Region consists of:
* it's close to Toronto, therefore it grew due to Toronto and it is therefore a suburb of Toronto.
* it doesn't have a large core consistent with its size

Somehow this means that Waterloo is a suburb of Toronto and therefore its growth isn't notable. It's about a ridiculous as saying that San Jose isn't its own city, or Philadelphia isn't its own city, or Milwaukee isn't its own city. Obviously they all are. San Jose is actually a really good analogy for Waterloo, albeit Waterloo is much smaller.

[Mister F]

There's obviously ignorance out there but you can't dismiss every criticism as hating or ignorance. Some very valid comments about K-W have been met with hostility on SSP. I lived in Waterloo for the better part of five years - it's more suburban than other metros its size, its downtowns are smaller than cities like London, and it doesn't feel like as much of a big city as some forumers make it out to be. That's just the nature of a metro centred on several cities instead of one, it doesn't mean I'm hating the city. There's some great stuff happening there, Uptown Waterloo alone has improved a lot since I lived there in 2002.

[jeremy_haak]

Originally Posted by Mister F

There's obviously ignorance out there but you can't dismiss every criticism as hating or ignorance. Some very valid comments about K-W have been met with hostility on SSP. I lived in Waterloo for the better part of five years - it's more suburban than other metros its size, its downtowns are smaller than cities like London, and it doesn't feel like as much of a big city as some forumers make it out to be. That's just the nature of a metro centred on several cities instead of one, it doesn't mean I'm hating the city. There's some great stuff happening there, Uptown Waterloo alone has improved a lot since I lived there in 2002.

Obviously Waterloo region is polycentric; however, many people seem to point to a picture of Kitchener's skyline, point out it is rather small for a city its size, and then conclude that it is more suburban than other cities its size without taking into account the fact that it has several urban centres. As far as downtown office space, Waterloo Region only has ~500000sqft less than London. So, although London's downtown is bigger than all of Waterloo's, overall, there is a similar amount of core office space. I imagine the same holds for commercial space and residential space (which is currently booming here). That said, Waterloo has another 8 million sqft of suburban office space, so the balance is shifted far more toward the suburbs.

People's arguments seemed to fall along the line that since Waterloo has a lot of suburban office space, therefore Waterloo is a suburb... of Toronto, which is absurd to people who actually know and understand the place. It would be wrong to say that Toronto has had no affect on Waterloo, but there's a bit more to being a suburb than simply being close to a city, and Waterloo doesn't come even close to satisfying the conditions necessary for being looped into the GTA.

[Waterlooson]

On this forum, the number and height of buildings in a city determines its worth and legitimacy. In the real world it doesn't quite work that way.... K-W will do well no matter what people here think. I only wish people (on this forum) would be less opinionated and more open minded .... perhaps they would actually learn something.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by Waterlooson

On this forum, the number and height of buildings in a city determines its worth and legitimacy. In the real world it doesn't quite work that way.... K-W will do well no matter what people here think. I only wish people (on this forum) would be less opinionated and more open minded .... perhaps they would actually learn something.

Yet you have made the amount of skyscraper activity as a main defining factor of what makes a city a good and respectable place towards certain cities out west; interesting.

[Waterlooson]

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

Yet you have made the amount of skyscraper activity as a main defining factor of what makes a city a good and respectable place towards certain cities out west; interesting.

No I haven't.... you are twisting my words after taking them totally out of context. Or maybe you are confusing me with someone else.... either way, shame on you.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by Waterlooson

perhaps they would actually learn something.

I did!

I love K-W! It has such a proud, vibrant & exciting community. Residents take pride in their respective cities.
That's the #1 problem with Hamilton's image as a Bedroom Community... people in THIS city would rather call themselves Torontonians (unless it comes to CFL games). It's pretty sad, really.

K-W will only grow, including it's downtown. Just look at all the loft developments going on in the downtowns. It's amazing.
I know another city that's concentrating on Infil projetcs over HighRise Buildings... it's called Montréal... has anyone heard of it? I've been both a visitor AND a resident of both Mtl and Tor, and let me tell you, the street-vibe in Mtl FARRRR outweighs Toronto's.
So do tall skyscrapers with Trump's name on it create an exiting street-life experience? Not so much...

[SteelTown]

Originally Posted by DC83

That's the #1 problem with Hamilton's image as a Bedroom Community... people in THIS city would rather call themselves Torontonians (unless it comes to CFL games). It's pretty sad, really.

I don't think I've ever met a person in Hamilton that refers to themselves as a Torontonian. Most that I know seem to have a pretty good hate on for Toronto lol.

[Dalreg]

Take this as you may, but it is not ignorance which causes many negative posts or comments with regards to Kitchener/Waterloo.

For me personally one or two forumers, are hell bent in cramming their personal agenda/bias on the rest of us forumers.

It is almost to the point where I will no longer even read threads with the KW name or RIM name. Get over it and move on.

My opinion. Take it or leave it, and for the record I will not be back to this thread anytime soon so go ahead and bash away.