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  #1  
Old Posted: Dec 19, 2007, 6:02 PM
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Life in Midtown/Downtown Sacramento

This "subthread" was begun in the K Street thread, but of course the tide of recent events demands that thread be on-topic so we can heap scorn on Mo. However, econgrad raised what I think are some points very much worth discussing: How does midtown Sacramento differ from Sacramento's surrounding suburbs? Econgrad has argued that there are no real reasons why suburban residents should move to the central city.

Dakotasteve posted this really great list of reasons why midtown was more liveable than his previous home in Elk Grove, which I repost here:

Quote:
1) History. I love my 1914 Craftsman Bungalow. I know of no where else besides midtown/central city Sacramento where you can live in a pre-1920's historical home or apartment.

2) Walkability. I happen to work downtown, so its a simple 30 minute walk to work when I choose. And when I don't, no commute traffic. I can walk to Safeway, to the local bread store, to coffee, to my doctor's offices, to a plethora of restaurants and entertainment venues. In Elk Grove, I could walk for 30 minutes and be lucky to hit one Circle K.

3) Mass Transit. Midtown and downtown Sacramento tend to be the hubs for all types of mass transit. I can more easily get to light rail or a bus going in nearly all directions in this area.

4) Diversity. My neighborhood is mixed with million dollar homes and $600 a month apartments. This allows for a wide diversity of people walking the neighborhood and frequenting near by businesses, from accountants to artists, state workers to students. And I find that with diversity comes a lot of tolerance, respect and camaraderie.

5) Neighborhood Community and Pride. I knew more of my neighbors in 2 months in midtown than I ever did in the 12 years in Elk Grove. People come out of their homes in the midtown area, instead of insulating themselves inside or barricaded in their backyards. And the people of this neighborhood care and get involved with what is happening around them (which includes an occasional NIMBY).

6) More regional events and attractions. Second Saturday Art Walk, the defunct Thursday Night Market, Farmer's Markets, Capitol Tree Lighting Ceremony, Cesar Chavez Park Friday Free Concerts, the State Capitol, Convention Center.
My argument, and response to econgrad, is that many of the arguments in favor of the central city are not imagined factors (like "lifestyle" or "personal preference") but actually physical differences between the central city and the suburbs. Some of these differences include:

* The grid street system. It is designed for permeability, walkability, multiple routes, and maximized street frontage. Suburban streets are designed to limit routes, maximize private property area vs. street frontage (thus reducing road maintenance overhead) and their broad design is intended for cars, not people.

* Lot settings of buildings. Buildings in the central city are oriented close to their lot line--both homes and businesses are right up against the sidewalk. This is because of the economics of pre-automobile cities: land was still at a premium, and access to the street more desirable than physical separation. Except for the biggest mansions, downtown homes tend to have tiny front lawns, 10-20 feet deep. Downtown businesses (the ones built prior to about 1940) are right up on the street, even auto-centric ones: Zocalo and PF Chang's are located inside former car dealerships! Parking lots, where they are found, are adjacent, behind or under the building, but generally street parking is used (and at a premium.)
In the suburbs, lawns are broad and deep, based on large lots. Retail uses are surrounded by a moat of parking, which separates pedestrians from the buildings and surrounds them with cars, discouraging foot traffic. Occasional "token" buildings are close to the street, but often these are the most auto-centric uses, like drive-through restaurants, and they are still surrounded by parking.

* Small lots. The typical suburban lot is 1/4 acre at a minimum, often much larger. Central city lots are generally 40x80 (1/13 of an acre) or 40x160 (about 1/6 acre.) Many of these lots are single-family homes, but large numbers have been converted into duplexes, tri-plexes or more, while in other places apartment buildings contain as many as 20 units on a single 40x160 lot. Also, many 40x160 lots use their copious "backyard space" for an alley-loaded garage or "mother-in-law" units on the alley, resulting in higher residential density. These neighborhoods were designed for people who walked to work, and couldn't afford large houses on large lots.

* Diversity. This includes economic diversity (difference of income) as well as ethnic/cultural/racial diversity, and diversity of sexual orientation. The suburbs are no longer the exclusively white enclaves they were intended to be, but the outer wave of suburban growth (the exoburbs, the kind of greenfield development that we're trying to stop) still is. But the central city has always been a diverse place, even after redevelopment efforts tried to force its depopulation.

This diversity also encourages a diversity of business: while downtown is not without its chain restaurants, you don't find the unchanging mix of chain stores that greets you in the suburbs and makes it impossble to tell where you are. Walk around the central city and you'll see family-owned Asian markets, hip boutiques featuring the work of local designers, restaurants with only one location, corner bars from the swanky to the seedy, the ubiquitous "retail blister" corner market situated every couple of blocks throughout the central city, and the other products and services that people need, from car repair to legal representation. Unlike the suburbs, where these things are all gathered together in a "retail district" (often so big that you have to drive from one end to the other) they are integrated with the neighborhood.
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Old Posted: Dec 19, 2007, 6:59 PM
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wburg,
Excellent description of the differences between suburbs and the central city. We are so fortunate to have the grid and its many forms of diversity.
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Old Posted: Dec 20, 2007, 12:11 AM
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Quite honestly Wburg, until you learn to throw out the textbook and just deal with people's realities, then this whole central city vs suburbs is nothing more than a fruitless comparism. As a North Natomas resident, I agree a lot with Econgrad and have said this before .... Sacramento is a lot more than just the midtown neighborhood. Heck, I had more things to do on a weekend afternoon when I lived near Cal Expo/Arden area than I did going downtown or midtown. I go to MT/DT mostly for the entertainment and nightlife which has truly only recently evolved in the last few years. Most cities from San Jose to San Diego to Portland to Nashville and many others congregate most of their bars and clubs downtown, so Sacramento is no different in that respect.

There are many reasons to live in the central city and 120,000 people in Elk Grove (as one example) decided it's not for them. All the arguments you've given for living in the central city may also be valid arguments for those who want to get as far away from it. I have friends that live in Folsom, work at Intel and rarely venture into Sacramento. I've driven to Folsom several times just for the nightlife and you'd be amazed at just how crowded and lively historic downtown Folsom on any weekend night.

Let's even imagine most of Sacaramento agree with you and want to move to the central city, then you'd soon come up with more arguments as to why they should now stay away. How dense is too dense to make urban sense? I just returned from Rio De Janiero, Brazil and stayed in Copacabana which is one of the densest places in the world. About 160,000 people live in a 3 sq miles area. Thanks but not my cup of tea.

And with regards to owning and living in old historic 1940s or 1920s homes or 1914 Craftsman Bungalow or whatever, to each their own. I HATE to own or live in old homes. Been to several here in Sac and SF and I'm glad they are not mine. I like my 2005 modern new home, thank you. I like to work in nice shiny new office buildings than some 1940 skyscraper somewhere. I stay in nice modern hotels and not historic, refurbished, cramped old hotels. That's my taste. That's my choice. Doesn't mean I hate the many charming and colorful victorians here and in SF. No, I don't. Nice to look at but not to own or live. To each their own.
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Old Posted: Dec 20, 2007, 12:12 AM
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I just discovered this new thread! At work now, can't post a response yet...great responses from Dakotasteve and Wburg so far! Rebuttal coming soon.
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Old Posted: Dec 20, 2007, 12:25 AM
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If I moved to downtown (all I need to do that is a cheaper rent then where I live with the same amenities) I would live the same life I live now. I wouldent talk to my neighbors like I do now, I wouldn't go to coffee shops down the street or art galleries down the street. I would still shop at wal-mart in west sac because it's the cheapest for food. The only thing that would change, is that I would maybe take Light Rail to school if it was the around the same amount of time it is to drive.
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Old Posted: Dec 20, 2007, 4:53 PM
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otnemarcas: This isn't based on a textbook, this is based on my own experiences actually living in the central city since 1993, and my own observations of the central city. The argument that midtown's nightlife only "evolved" in recent years doesn't hold up--the main reason I moved downtown then is because there were so many entertainment options. At that time I went out 4-5 nights a week, and the only reason it wasn't seven was because I was making about $500 a month and couldn't afford more!

I also have some experience in the suburbs--I grew up in Citrus Heights. It wasn't all bad, but hanging out at the 7-11 for entertainment got old fast.

I'm not trying to argue that living in midtown is for everyone--it isn't. But there are definite reasons why people are drawn here, and your post only makes clearer that there are distinct differences between the suburbs and the central city here in Sacramento. I don't want everyone to move to midtown--but I won't stand by and have people accuse midtown of being the same as the suburbs.

TWAK puts it well too: if you aren't the sort of person interested in going to coffee shops or art galleries or meeting your neighbors, or shopping places other than Wal-Mart, then maybe the suburbs are the best choice for you. If you hate old buildings, then strolling through the central city won't have much appeal. For those interested in a different style of life (and yes, it isn't for everyone) midtown offers an urban option.

And 1940s buildings are still considered "the new houses" down here. My house was built in 1907. I'm not sure when my office was built, but the basement level is brick and built down to the original pre-1860s flood level.
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Old Posted: Dec 20, 2007, 5:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otnemarcaS View Post
How dense is too dense to make urban sense? I just returned from Rio De Janiero, Brazil and stayed in Copacabana which is one of the densest places in the world. About 160,000 people live in a 3 sq miles area. Thanks but not my cup of tea.
Copacabana in 1950
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Old Posted: Dec 20, 2007, 5:18 PM
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or perhaps the railyards circa 2025?

(i know wburg is looking for the streetcar in that shot)
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Old Posted: Dec 20, 2007, 5:26 PM
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^
^ What a sterile place to live, no thanks.

That's funny Wberg, the best place you could find to hang out in Citrus Heights
was at the 7-11? Obviously you did not try very hard to do much of anything.
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Old Posted: Dec 20, 2007, 6:50 PM
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Most cities, like Rio de Janeiro, are very different from American cities. In most of the world, the central city is the wealthy part, dense because most European cities were built within protective castle walls, and the lower classes live on the perimeter away from the urban core. Most of the people in Rio don't live on the street you photographed: they live out in "mushroom" shacks made of tin cans and scrap wood, generally without electricity or running water, which surround most South American cities. And most of Rio de Janeiro is definitely not what you'd call "sterile."

I don't think anyone (except maybe Majin) wants to see Sacramento that dense, but we're currently the densest part of the region and, with appropriate infill and some tall stuff in places like the Docks and the Railyards, could stand to get quite a bit denser. Repopulating the central city will help bring downtown back to its past status as a late-night hoppin' sort of place (the more I learn about local history, the more I get the idea that this was the New Orleans of the west coast in the 1920s-1940s.)

The buildings in the photo are about 8-10 stories high: that is actually pretty close to what Thomas Enterprises has in mind for the last buildout phase, near the "Boxcar Parks" area. The ones closest to the parks will be limited to 75 feet, the ones farther away 150 feet. There will be light rail down Seventh Street.

innov8: I exaggerate only slightly--my 7-11 phase was at about age 16, with no car, and there wasn't much to walk to other than shopping centers. Social life in Citrus Heights pretty much revolved around Sunrise Mall or Birdcage Walk and the midnight movies. Moving downtown was a natural progression for my social circle--you outgrow Citrus Heights, so you move downtown.
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Old Posted: Dec 20, 2007, 6:58 PM
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yeah the architecture and streetscape sucks, but beyond the facade and
maybe a couple floors off the taller buildings there, and that's the kinda of
density the railyards project is seeking.

Those are about 9 stories, while the Railyards will be about 5-7. Of course
in this country and state, it's going to be much more comprehensive - trees,
planters, signage, architectral diversity.
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Old Posted: Dec 21, 2007, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
Most cities, like Rio de Janeiro, are very different from American cities.

innov8: I exaggerate only slightly--my 7-11 phase was at about age 16, with no car, and there wasn't much to walk to other than shopping centers. Social life in Citrus Heights pretty much revolved around Sunrise Mall or Birdcage Walk and the midnight movies. Moving downtown was a natural progression for my social circle--you outgrow Citrus Heights, so you move downtown.
I wanted to try and stick to Sacramento. My original point was, DT and MT Sacramento does not offer enough to justify the prices, and it is not the center of our Sac metro culture as a whole (yet, but someday I hope it will). Everyone should know that ofcourse New York (Manhattan) is different, San Francisco is different, Rio, Tokyo, whatever other cities we can post about to prove our points. Back to the original: Downtown Sac VS Folsom, Roseville, Citrus Heights, ETC
I cannot talk about Elk Grove because I just realized, I have never been there! LOL!
And Wburg! Midnight movies at Birdcage? Way cool! I remember that too, when I was in high school, total blast from the past on that one. The natural progression of moving from Citrus Heights to DT also makes a lot of sense. I went to SF after high school myself. You definately outgrow places like Citrus Heights. I also agree with everyone that many suburbs (not all of them, but some) in Sac Metro have, for lack of a better description, less Tolerant and less accomplished academically individuals. More diversity I must disagree with for now, I am going to find some stats on that and post them ASAP.
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Old Posted: Dec 21, 2007, 6:21 AM
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* The grid street system. It is designed for permeability, walkability, multiple routes, and maximized street frontage. Suburban streets are designed to limit routes, maximize private property area vs. street frontage (thus reducing road maintenance overhead) and their broad design is intended for cars, not people. This is true about grid systems, but downtown Sacramento is still car culture. 16 runs right through DT, the streets are wide and the sidewalks are thin. New York is built for pedestrians, Manhattan's Sidewalks are 6 feet wide or more. Sacramento's thin, tree laden sidewalks will be crowded and will cause major headaches for the city and pedestrians alike as more and more people live downtown. There is simply not enough room for crowds of people walking, with bicycles, and cars. With crowds, I mean constant crowds walking as we see in more developed downtowns. DT Sacramento is not developed enough for this yet, and may never be ready.

* Lot settings of buildings. Buildings in the central city are oriented close to their lot line--both homes and businesses are right up against the sidewalk. This is because of the economics of pre-automobile cities: land was still at a premium, and access to the street more desirable than physical separation. Except for the biggest mansions, downtown homes tend to have tiny front lawns, 10-20 feet deep. Downtown businesses (the ones built prior to about 1940) are right up on the street, even auto-centric ones: Zocalo and PF Chang's are located inside former car dealerships! Parking lots, where they are found, are adjacent, behind or under the building, but generally street parking is used (and at a premium.)
In the suburbs, lawns are broad and deep, based on large lots. Retail uses are surrounded by a moat of parking, which separates pedestrians from the buildings and surrounds them with cars, discouraging foot traffic. Occasional "token" buildings are close to the street, but often these are the most auto-centric uses, like drive-through restaurants, and they are still surrounded by parking.
Although historically this is true, Sacramento is still car culture, you cannot really live here without a car. Bad city planning to make it easier to not own a car has not been very successful. Bad planning has led K Street, when cars where allowed, was a bustling shopping district. If you walk into the old student Union at CSUS, you will see old pictures of K street, you wouldn't recognize it. It was full of people on the sidewalks, and full of cars in the streets. It looked very New Yorkish! Now, as the city's poor planning is still going strong, we continue to discuss how terrible K street is, with all its no car, pedestrian friendly atmosphere. It is a total disaster. Westfield contains a huge parking lot, as does the city. Everyone who lives in Folsom or Roseville would never get on the RT and go downtown to shop, if they really had to go downtown, they would drive. The RT is inconvenient and can be dangerous. It also stops around midnight. Therefore, walking and carrying your groceries for 5 or 6 blocks or more, does not appeal to people who can just drive to Raleys in 3 minutes, park, get what you need, and drive into their garage and unload.
* Small lots. The typical suburban lot is 1/4 acre at a minimum, often much larger. Central city lots are generally 40x80 (1/13 of an acre) or 40x160 (about 1/6 acre.) Many of these lots are single-family homes, but large numbers have been converted into duplexes, tri-plexes or more, while in other places apartment buildings contain as many as 20 units on a single 40x160 lot. Also, many 40x160 lots use their copious "backyard space" for an alley-loaded garage or "mother-in-law" units on the alley, resulting in higher residential density. These neighborhoods were designed for people who walked to work, and couldn't afford large houses on large lots.
This is what I do not get. The prices of the downtown condos, and downtown houses are much higher than the surrounding areas. For around $600,000 you can buy a house on 1/2 acre land, with built in swimming pool, 5 bedrooms, a spa, 3 baths, 2 car garage in Fair Oaks. How much were the 2 bedroom high rise condos? How much are the new single family homes with no yard and much higher crime rate? Where is the value? It should be less expensive to live in an Urban area, not more.

* Diversity. This includes economic diversity (difference of income) as well as ethnic/cultural/racial diversity, and diversity of sexual orientation. The suburbs are no longer the exclusively white enclaves they were intended to be, but the outer wave of suburban growth (the exoburbs, the kind of greenfield development that we're trying to stop) still is. But the central city has always been a diverse place, even after redevelopment efforts tried to force its depopulation.
Sacramento Demographics: Latino = 21.6% White = 40.5% Black = 15.5% Asian 16.6% Other 4.8%. The more diverse neighborhoods include: Florin: Latino = 20.8%, White = 34.99%, Black = 18.75% Asian = 19.55% Ntv.Am. = 1.25% Other = 3.76% Data from the Natomas Unified School District also shows a much more diverse ethnic population than the inner city core: White = 26.6%, Black = 25.3% Hispanic = 25.5%, Asian 12.9%, Other 10.3%
The inner city of Sacramento is not the most ethnically diverse area in Sac Metro as demonstrated.

This diversity also encourages a diversity of business: while downtown is not without its chain restaurants, you don't find the unchanging mix of chain stores that greets you in the suburbs and makes it impossble to tell where you are. Walk around the central city and you'll see family-owned Asian markets, hip boutiques featuring the work of local designers, restaurants with only one location, corner bars from the swanky to the seedy, the ubiquitous "retail blister" corner market situated every couple of blocks throughout the central city, and the other products and services that people need, from car repair to legal representation. Unlike the suburbs, where these things are all gathered together in a "retail district" (often so big that you have to drive from one end to the other) they are integrated with the neighborhood.[/QUOTE]

I know when I am in Folsom, or Rancho or Fair Oaks, or Carmichael or Roseville. Folsom has many unique small stores, resturaunts, and shops unique to Folsom only. As does Roseville, Rancho and all the other areas. Fair Oaks has Slocum house and many other interesting shops in Old Fair Oaks. You can find uniqueness just as much in the outer areas as you find in DT and MT. DT has its Westfield Mall, So does Roseville. Roseville has many small owner operated business, so does MT and DT. There is no difference between the two in that respect.

Last edited by econgrad; Dec 21, 2007 at 7:24 AM.
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Old Posted: Dec 21, 2007, 2:32 PM
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Quote:
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Most of the people in Rio don't live on the street you photographed: they live out in "mushroom" shacks made of tin cans and scrap wood, generally without electricity or running water
most favelas in Rio DO HAVE electricity and running water. And most of people from Rio DO NOT LIVE in favelas. The figure is more like 30%.





as for the comment about the Copacabana being sterile... lol... Copacabana is ANYTHING but sterile.
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Old Posted: Dec 21, 2007, 2:36 PM
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yeah the architecture and streetscape sucks



@Econgrad: nice choice of avatar. Up The Irons. I already bought my ticket for the 2008 tour... to the show in Porto Alegre.
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Old Posted: Dec 21, 2007, 4:30 PM
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Quote:
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as for the comment about the Copacabana being sterile... lol... Copacabana is ANYTHING but sterile.
Trantor, if you read what I said, I did not refer to the city as sterile just
the environment that you choose to show in your photo. All the buildings
look identical in height and design, they all appear to be made from the
same concrete material with no color... and above all, there are no trees.
IMO, a boring street with no character.

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Old Posted: Dec 21, 2007, 5:35 PM
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in Paris, all buildings are the same color and height, and most streets at old town have no trees. Still, its far from sterile.

these are shots of the same avenue, today







and a shot of the same avenue around 1920-1930




some other streetshot in another place of Copacabana
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Old Posted: Dec 21, 2007, 5:36 PM
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the density is quite striking, as you can see in this shot, which shows just a small section of Copacabana
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Old Posted: Dec 21, 2007, 5:57 PM
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Trantor, try not to take it so personal… I’m not attacking your beloved city, I'm sure it's a nice place.
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Old Posted: Dec 21, 2007, 6:20 PM
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Yes those are some striking pictures in terms of urban density. But strictly on
terms of architectural flair, that's not even remotely comparable with Paris.
Fortunately that doesn't have much to do with how vibrant a city truly is - it's
just the icing on the cake.
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