Poll: Should the University of British Columbia join the NCAA?

[Rusty Gull]

What we need is two CIS divisions: a Div 1 and a Div 2, especially since Gordon Campbell has magically transformed numerous community colleges and "university colleges" into universities in the past few years.

A university like UBC should not be wasting time competing with small programs like Cap College or Fraser Valley -- with the exception of the pre-season. Nor should Cap College be in the business of trying to compete against UBC or Alberta in a sport like football.

They need to be playing inter-divisionally against SFU, the University of Alberta, the University of Saskatchewan, and U of Manitoba (and the usual suspects from the east in the playoffs), etc. You get the drift.

[Finiteman]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

The problem with those BC programs is the vast difference difference in size between the schools. Only in a sport like basketball could even a handful of those schools compete on the same level. In a sport like football, only 3 of those schools could compete at a top level (in Canada). That would still require the BC schools to travel to far off places like Manitoba which is hard on the travel budget.

To give you an example of just how non-important sports are in some of these schools, when UNBC first opened they lacked even the most essential facilities to support sport teams. Some of those schools play in facilities that only hold a few hundred and worse, draw crowds that are mostly family friends. To get the funds to improve such facilities is like pulling teeth. So being able to offer full ride athletic scholarships are a solar system away.

I can totally understand your lack of enthusiam for playing schools with enrollments under 10,000, but those are the size schools you'd be playing in DII.

I am curious which 3 you think could play football if they were so inclined. I am guessing UVic, TRU, and...? UFV? VIU? UBCO? I'd love to hear all UBC and SFU fan's opinions/ evaluations on their potential conference mates.

Institution Enrollment
University of British Columbia 43579
Simon Fraser University 28207
University of the Fraser Valley 21500
University of Victoria 19500
Thompson Rivers University 13072
Trinity Western University 2700

Vancouver Island University 19124
University of British Columbia-Okanagan 7500*
Capilano University 6615
University of Northern British Columbia 3675

*projected 2010 enrollment.

I agree that the smaller schools (TWU,Calipano, and UNBC) would be very unwise to attempt to play football. Everyone else ....Not so sure --- especially if football remains non-scholarship. FCS in the US is full of schools with enrollments in the 6-15K range and many of those schools offer a full 65 scholarships. I don't think it is out of the question that some of these schools could compete in a non-scholarhip level --- especially as there are workable CIS sized fields available at a number of these schools.

Regarding your first point, I'd disagree a bit there too. CIS plays a 8 game regular season in a 10 week schedule. TECHNICALLY, if 3 teams joined SFU and UBC, those schools could play home and home like they do in the AUS and it would fill all 8 game slots and conserve a ton of money for other athletic improvements. The rest of the CW could then do the same. It could be a huge financial positive for CW football programs.

Now would there be student and alumni enthusiasm for that kind of conference? Honestly, probably not. But I think fan support at games could very well overrule that. I think initially it might be a tough sell, but it could end up being a big positive in a few years. US collegiate football attendances get big bumps from travelling fans. What would UBC attendance be like if their schedule was:

game opponent
1 @Uvic
2 TRU
3 @SFU
4 UFV
5 @TRU
6 @UFV
7 UVic
8 SFU

I have to think they'd start getting at least 500 travelling fans/students for most home games ---maybe 1000.

How great would it be to end the season with rematches vs. nearby rivals with a packed stadium full of fans & students of both schools? You just don't get that closing with Manitoba or whoever now and IMO that cripples football attendance in CIS.

It also opens the door to the possibility of schools in both conferences/divisions pushing for a 10 game schedule in the future to renew rivalries at a cost effective level. I think a 10 game schedule down the road would help football grow a lot at the CIS level.

[Finiteman]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

What we need is two CIS divisions: a Div 1 and a Div 2, especially since Gordon Campbell has magically transformed numerous community colleges and "university colleges" into universities in the past few years.

A university like UBC should not be wasting time competing with small programs like Cap College or Fraser Valley -- with the exception of the pre-season. Nor should Cap College be in the business of trying to compete against UBC or Alberta in a sport like football.

They need to be playing inter-divisionally against SFU, the University of Alberta, the University of Saskatchewan, and U of Manitoba (and the usual suspects from the east in the playoffs), etc. You get the drift.

Do you have a problem with schools like Calipano and UBCO competing with UBC in less expensive sports like basketball?

It seems to me that CIS travel costs are unneccessarily brutal right now and do a lot to sap Canadian Universities' ability to put together strong programs.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by Finiteman

I can totally understand your lack of enthusiam for playing schools with enrollments under 10,000, but those are the size schools you'd be playing in DII.

I am curious which 3 you think could play football if they were so inclined. I am guessing UVic, TRU, and...? UFV? VIU? UBCO? I'd love to hear all UBC and SFU fan's opinions/ evaluations on their potential conference mates.

Institution Enrollment
University of British Columbia 43579
Simon Fraser University 28207
University of the Fraser Valley 21500
University of Victoria 19500
Thompson Rivers University 13072
Trinity Western University 2700

Vancouver Island University 19124
University of British Columbia-Okanagan 7500*
Capilano University 6615
University of Northern British Columbia 3675

*projected 2010 enrollment.

I agree that the smaller schools (TWU,Calipano, and UNBC) would be very unwise to attempt to play football. Everyone else ....Not so sure --- especially if football remains non-scholarship. FCS in the US is full of schools with enrollments in the 6-15K range and many of those schools offer a full 65 scholarships. I don't think it is out of the question that some of these schools could compete in a non-scholarhip level --- especially as there are workable CIS sized fields available at a number of these schools.

Regarding your first point, I'd disagree a bit there too. CIS plays a 8 game regular season in a 10 week schedule. TECHNICALLY, if 3 teams joined SFU and UBC, those schools could play home and home like they do in the AUS and it would fill all 8 game slots and conserve a ton of money for other athletic improvements. The rest of the CW could then do the same. It could be a huge financial positive for CW football programs.

Now would there be student and alumni enthusiasm for that kind of conference? Honestly, probably not. But I think fan support at games could very well overrule that. I think initially it might be a tough sell, but it could end up being a big positive in a few years. US collegiate football attendances get big bumps from travelling fans. What would UBC attendance be like if their schedule was:

game opponent
1 @Uvic
2 TRU
3 @SFU
4 UFV
5 @TRU
6 @UFV
7 UVic
8 SFU

I have to think they'd start getting at least 500 travelling fans/students for most home games ---maybe 1000.

How great would it be to end the season with rematches vs. nearby rivals with a packed stadium full of fans & students of both schools? You just don't get that closing with Manitoba or whoever now and IMO that cripples football attendance in CIS.

It also opens the door to the possibility of schools in both conferences/divisions pushing for a 10 game schedule in the future to renew rivalries at a cost effective level. I think a 10 game schedule down the road would help football grow a lot at the CIS level.

I realize the size of the schools would not change, however the ability to offer full ride athletic scholarships would. It is a lateral move to the say the very least, but such is the case when the CIS won't clue in.

When I said that 3 schools could field a football team I was counting the 2 that already do. The only other candidates would be UVIC and surprisingly the most likely to accomplish the feat- University of British Columbia-Okanagan.

Furthermore, you cannot compare smaller schools in the US that play football to Canadian ones. Apples to oranges. Football is a way of life down south. Its not here. Same situation for hockey, but in reverse. As for 500-1000 fans travelling to games again, thats a little optimistic. SFU-UBC have been playing games against each other for 40 years now and a few years ago, one of their football match-ups barely drew triple digits. The kind of passion that is commonplace in the US just doesn't really happen here. That could change; but not overnight, and not without plenty of effort and leadership. So I'm banking on the CIS getting to it around the year 2117.

[Spork]

I think that part of the reason for a lack of interest in watching athletics up here may be that Canadian schools are more difficult than American ones. I've heard this from more than a couple of people. And while I haven't been to an American school myself, I can tell you that my friends on facebook seem to have a LOT more free time than myself.

[Finiteman]

Originally Posted by djmk

before you say whether a canadian team joins the NCAA, here are the schools' two-year averages and do not include booster and other donations.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colle...-sidebar_N.htm


Conference------------Athletics expenses 2005, '06

Southeastern----------$53,006,981
Atlantic Coast----------$48,544,030
Big 12 -----------------$53,584,264
Big East----------------$39,914,278
Big Ten----------------$61,720,761
Pacific-10--------------$43,840,355
Mountain West---------$23,848,534
Conference USA---------$21,601,374
Mid-American-----------$17,279,758
Sun Belt ---------------$12,232,453
Western Athletic----------$17,261,865

I think that these numbers SHOULD be looked at as a hurdle for NCAA DI membership. Your fees would almost exclusively come from student fees as it stands with no developed money sports. If each student paid a $200 annual athletic fee (as mentioned by one prior poster)....

Institution Enrollment x$200 per student athletic fee= athletic budget
University of British Columbia 43579 $8,715,800
Simon Fraser University 28207 $5,641,400
University of the Fraser Valley 21500 $4,300,000
University of Victoria 19500 $3,900,000
Thompson Rivers University 13072 $2,614,400
Trinity Western University 2700 $540,000

Vancouver Island University 19124 $3,824,800
University of British Columbia-Okanagan 7500* $1,500,000
Capilano University 6615 $1,323,000
University of Northern British Columbia 3675 $735,000

Now that kind of budget at UBC & SFU would be huge at DII, OK at I-AAA, and medium at the FCS level.

In Texas, where I live, Universities's student contributions are capped at $20 per semester hour ---basically $600 a yer per student. Several schools's student bodies have chosen to pay that. To play DI, you guys might have to pay that. If you guys are in fact paying only $200, I think it is an unrealistic plan for the athletic departments up there to think their student bodies wouldn't fight that tooth and nail.

But if the schools decided to play in Canada and the other schools pulled $200 per student there would be more than enough to put together high level canadian athletic programs that could compete with American programs in non-football sports.

Cashwise, at least, schools like TRU, VIU, UVic, and UFV could afford to play a full load of CIS sports and probably could give 10-12 mens BB scholarships too if it went that way.

I can understand that schools like UFV and VIU are multiple compuses transformed into a university and from that perspective I can understand questioning whether they have the concentration of students to pull 1-2k to a football game, but they do have some advantages too. UVic, UFV, and TRU have useable stadia nearby if they ever decided to do it and a lack of real competition for Football and Basketball entertainment dollars. UBCO appears to have plans for a sports field. CIS football only takes a 2-3K stadium.