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Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > SSP: Local Calgary > Transportation & Infrastructure

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  #101  
Old Posted May 17, 2010, 5:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Joborule View Post
That's something that I've been musing about for a while. It would allow the ability to make the TCH a full (and directly E-W) freeway in the city, while preserving the 16th avenue urban corridor. Wonder if it would be anything realistically done in the long term future. Because it seems a bit off to have freeways on the east side of Deerfoot, and west of Sarcee Trail, but make it a major road right jab in the middle.
Never going to happen, but it would be sweet though! But who knows... give us another hundred or so years and another 4 or 5 million people, it might be worth it!

I think the parallel roads would be a neat idea, you could have the 16th urban corridor complete with a street car directly above a tunnelled expressway for through traffic.

Im guessing that would make the ring road obsolete pretty quick, wasnt that one of its big goals to divert cross-town truck traffic?
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  #102  
Old Posted May 17, 2010, 5:40 AM
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Originally Posted by dmuzika View Post
A tunnel could not borred to connect 16 Avenue to Glenmore Trail inside city limits. To do that it would have to be N-S orrientated and there are already some major routes that serve that purpose; Deerfoot Trail, Crowchild Trail, Sarcee Trail, and the future Stoney Trail on both the east and west perimeter of the city. Maybe an alternative would be to construct a NE/SW orientated connector somewhere between Calgary and Strathmore that could connect the Trans Canada with Glenmore Trail.

I've thought about an E-W tunnel between Crowchild and Deerfoot Trails under 16 Ave, but other than cost I don't know how practical it would be for inner city usage.
Get the CPR to move their mainline into a tunnel with a West portal at Nose Hill Dr/Bearspaw Dam Rd NW and an east portal at 64 Ave/Hunterhorn Rd NE. This tunnel would connect the mainline at Bearspaw with the Calgary-Edmonton tracks beside Deerfoot Tr. which already connect to the CPR yards east and south of Downtown.

Its easier to build a tunnel big enough for one railway track that only has to get from the East Portal to the West Portal, than it is to build two tunnels with two or 3 lanes each for vehicles that will also need extra subsurface tunnels to connect with surface streets that they pass under (ie: Crowchild, Shaganappi, John Laurie, 14th St, Centre St)

With the CPR mainline out of downtown, you now have a swath of land 2 blocks wide from Crowchild Tr to Inglewood for commercial and residential development, and you can reuse some of the ROW for a high capacity roadway that can connect from the TCH / Sarcee Trail area of Bowness along the river past Shaganappi, through downtown to Blackfoot Tr, Deerfoot Tr. and 17th Ave.

Perhaps CPR can crunch the numbers and may discover that leasing all their land downtown for redevelopment and a high capacity roadway can more than cover the costs of building a new rail tunnel between Silver Springs and Huntington Hills.
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  #103  
Old Posted May 17, 2010, 5:08 PM
Daguy Daguy is offline
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Originally Posted by dmuzika View Post
A tunnel could not borred to connect 16 Avenue to Glenmore Trail inside city limits. To do that it would have to be N-S orrientated and there are already some major routes that serve that purpose; Deerfoot Trail, Crowchild Trail, Sarcee Trail, and the future Stoney Trail on both the east and west perimeter of the city. Maybe an alternative would be to construct a NE/SW orientated connector somewhere between Calgary and Strathmore that could connect the Trans Canada with Glenmore Trail.

I've thought about an E-W tunnel between Crowchild and Deerfoot Trails under 16 Ave, but other than cost I don't know how practical it would be for inner city usage.
Sorry guys! Geez I gotta review things more carefully before posting: I've edited my previous post. I meant to ask what you have just mentioned, it was supposed to read "Deerfoot" and not "Glenmore". Must have looked like a strange post lol.
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  #104  
Old Posted May 17, 2010, 5:14 PM
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Originally Posted by MasterG View Post
Never going to happen, but it would be sweet though! But who knows... give us another hundred or so years and another 4 or 5 million people, it might be worth it!

I think the parallel roads would be a neat idea, you could have the 16th urban corridor complete with a street car directly above a tunnelled expressway for through traffic.

Im guessing that would make the ring road obsolete pretty quick, wasnt that one of its big goals to divert cross-town truck traffic?
I do see what you're saying, but I don't think the ring road would be obsolete. I think anyone going from the TCH to highway 2 would still prefer Stoney Trail because it is less busy than Deerfoot, and the neighbourhoods along the ring road are always going to benefit from having it there. Even if more truck traffic going E-W returned to using the TCH, at least it will bypass the most urbanized area of 16th through the tunneled portion of the highway.
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  #105  
Old Posted May 17, 2010, 6:45 PM
Oliver Klozov Oliver Klozov is offline
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I think long before anything is done on 16th between the Hospitals and Deerfoot, something will be done with the stretch through Montgomery. A tunnel would likely be out of the question there.
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  #106  
Old Posted May 17, 2010, 7:02 PM
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I think the Ring Road will make any attempts to make 16th Avenue more free-flowing a very long-term dream. Alberta Transportation will certainly want nothing to do with massive expenditures on that road now, and will likely term the ring road an official bypass for the Trans Canada similar to how the Perimeter is listed as a bypass in Winnipeg.
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  #107  
Old Posted May 17, 2010, 7:09 PM
BP_Brandon BP_Brandon is offline
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Originally Posted by jsbertram View Post
Get the CPR to move their mainline into a tunnel with a West portal at Nose Hill Dr/Bearspaw Dam Rd NW and an east portal at 64 Ave/Hunterhorn Rd NE. This tunnel would connect the mainline at Bearspaw with the Calgary-Edmonton tracks beside Deerfoot Tr. which already connect to the CPR yards east and south of Downtown.

Its easier to build a tunnel big enough for one railway track that only has to get from the East Portal to the West Portal, than it is to build two tunnels with two or 3 lanes each for vehicles that will also need extra subsurface tunnels to connect with surface streets that they pass under (ie: Crowchild, Shaganappi, John Laurie, 14th St, Centre St)

With the CPR mainline out of downtown, you now have a swath of land 2 blocks wide from Crowchild Tr to Inglewood for commercial and residential development, and you can reuse some of the ROW for a high capacity roadway that can connect from the TCH / Sarcee Trail area of Bowness along the river past Shaganappi, through downtown to Blackfoot Tr, Deerfoot Tr. and 17th Ave.

Perhaps CPR can crunch the numbers and may discover that leasing all their land downtown for redevelopment and a high capacity roadway can more than cover the costs of building a new rail tunnel between Silver Springs and Huntington Hills.
Interesting concept…. Some obvious problems however, firstly the corridor through downtown has more then one track, several actually that CPR needs for capacity requirements. With a one track tunnel, those other tracks would have to be duplicated. Secondly, the strip of land downtown would have to be reclaimed before it could be turned over for other purposes. This would be a very big task considering it’s been an active railway right of way for 100+ years. Thirdly, the tunnel would be approx 10 km long, this would require extensive ventilation engineering using loud exhaust fans usually located at each portal and most probably mid tunnel somewhere. (Loco’s pump out lots of hot exhaust) Fourthly, the tunnel would have to be deep enough so the residential folk above aren’t shaken from there beds, and wouldn’t mind the fact of all the highly dangerous product being shipped right underneath them.
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  #108  
Old Posted May 18, 2010, 1:15 PM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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Originally Posted by BP_Brandon View Post
Interesting concept…. Some obvious problems however, firstly the corridor through downtown has more then one track, several actually that CPR needs for capacity requirements. With a one track tunnel, those other tracks would have to be duplicated. Secondly, the strip of land downtown would have to be reclaimed before it could be turned over for other purposes. This would be a very big task considering it’s been an active railway right of way for 100+ years. Thirdly, the tunnel would be approx 10 km long, this would require extensive ventilation engineering using loud exhaust fans usually located at each portal and most probably mid tunnel somewhere. (Loco’s pump out lots of hot exhaust) Fourthly, the tunnel would have to be deep enough so the residential folk above aren’t shaken from there beds, and wouldn’t mind the fact of all the highly dangerous product being shipped right underneath them.
1) the corridor through downtown has more then one track, several actually that CPR needs for capacity requirements. With a one track tunnel, those other tracks would have to be duplicated.
The extra tracks downtown are typically used for holding trains waiting to head westbound or eastbound trains that are waiting to enter the yards east and south of Inglewood. The tracks downtown narrow down to a single track between 14 St W through Bowness (with a siding south of Bowness Road), and a small yard West of Bearspaw Dam. Having the Tunnel connect to this Bearspaw Dam yard doesn't change the number of tracks leaving downtown (one). The siding south of Bowness Rd. and the holding tracks downtown could be re-located alongside the Calgary-Edmonton tracks parallel to Deerfoot Tr. (somewhere between 64th Ave and the Bow River) so that a westbound train can be held there before using the Tunnel, and Eastbound trains that have just exited the tunnel can be held north of the Bow River Inglewood bridge before entering the CPR yards. with both sidings built there, the Calgary-Edmonton line can remain unblocked for its traffic to flow while Westbound and Eastbound mainline traffic are using the tunnel.

2) the strip of land downtown would have to be reclaimed before it could be turned over for other purposes. This would be a very big task considering it’s been an active railway right of way for 100+ years.
Since the land will be dug up anyhow for redevelopment, the extra expense of cleaning up the land will have to be included in the costs that CPR will have to bear for preparing their land for leasing so they can be redeveloped.

3) the tunnel would be approx 10 km long, this would require extensive ventilation engineering using loud exhaust fans usually located at each portal and most probably mid tunnel somewhere. (Loco’s pump out lots of hot exhaust)
We can see how this can be done in an urban environment by taking ideas used in the Mount MacDonald tunnel, which is actually longer than this tunnel in Calgary would be. Moose and Bears are likely as sensitive to industrial noise as people are.

Another option is to have the tunnels and nearby sidings electrified so that an electric engine can be attached to the train waiting at the siding before entering the tunnel, the electric engine can pull the train through the tunnel to the other siding where it's detached & ready to pull another train through the tunnel in the opposite direction. The trains would have their usual compliment of diesel engines idling during the transit through the tunnel to minimize exhaust fumes, and would be ready to rev up & continue their trip as soon as the electric engine detaches and is out of the way.

Perhaps 'green goat' engines could be used instead. These are engines primarily used as yard switchers that have a small diesel engine/generator that is used to keep a set of on-board batteries charged. The batteries are used to supply motive power when the engine is moving cars around the yard, and the diesel engine/generator activates when the battery's charge needs to be replenished and can be done when the 'green goat' is otherwise idle & waiting for the next task to be done.

4) the tunnel would have to be deep enough so the residential folk above aren’t shaken from there beds
Since the tunnel is already 50 or more feet below Huntington Hills and Silver Springs because they are on bluffs overlooking the Nose Creek and the Bow River respectively, and the other districts between Huntington Hills and Silver Springs are at higher elevations as they get closer to Nose Hill, and with the CPR tunnel at a relatively flat slope between the east and west portals, it is doubtful that anyone would notice the train traffic below them. I would expect more problems with vibrations and noise from truck traffic on nearby streets than would be felt from trains rolling under their districts.

5) wouldn’t mind the fact of all the highly dangerous product being shipped right underneath them
I wonder now much sleep the residents of Bowness, Montgomery, and Inglewood are losing by worrying about the dangerous cargos that rumble by their back yards every day?


I've been mulling this over for months, and originally thought that the CPR could just move their mainline tracks & yards outside the city limits, but because these are east-west tracks connecting Toronto to Vancouver, no matter where they are relocated, the city will grow and eventually bang into them again. We might as well accept that fact, and build a new Mainline CPR tunnel under the city, and in doing so open up $billions$ of dollars worth of land for redevelopment. If the CPR is smart, they would slowly pace this so that every few years a block is made available for lease, and the full redevelopment process could take decades to complete.
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  #109  
Old Posted May 31, 2010, 11:26 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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Originally Posted by Oliver Klozov View Post
I think long before anything is done on 16th between the Hospitals and Deerfoot, something will be done with the stretch through Montgomery. A tunnel would likely be out of the question there.
Would a RIRO-expressway configuration work through Montgomery? All right turns and accesses permitted, left turns prohibited with a median barrier, overpasses and interchanges at each end providing for turnarounds and left-turn movements and pedestrian crossovers.
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  #110  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2010, 5:40 AM
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TCH through Montgomery

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Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
Would a RIRO-expressway configuration work through Montgomery? All right turns and accesses permitted, left turns prohibited with a median barrier, overpasses and interchanges at each end providing for turnarounds and left-turn movements and pedestrian crossovers.
I say switch the TCH through Montgomery to the current Bowness Road and upgrade it to free flow standards. This would require removing some housing on one side. The current TCH would act as a service road.
Once your west of the Safeway / Dairy Queen the highway could be upgraded to freeway right out of town.
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  #111  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2010, 8:44 PM
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TCH thru Montgomery

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I say switch the TCH through Montgomery to the current Bowness Road and upgrade it to free flow standards. This would require removing some housing on one side. The current TCH would act as a service road.
Once your west of the Safeway / Dairy Queen the highway could be upgraded to freeway right out of town.
I completely disagree with this idea. Bowness Road thru Montgomery is the Main Street of the neighbourhood. Turning it into the TCH would wreck the community. I think Bowness Road has the potential to be another Kensington. That's the intent of the Area Redevelopment Plan. 16th Av is a highway commercial zone. There's plenty of highway, it can be relocated elsewhere.

BTW, here's the highway widening plan from the Bowmont Design Brief (circa 1975). I think the ROW is still being protected.


Last edited by Jack Doe; Sep 28, 2010 at 10:43 PM. Reason: Make image fit
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  #112  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2010, 9:40 PM
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^^ Yeah looking at My Property the southwest side of 16th ave has a ROW of about 33% additional space
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Last edited by DizzyEdge; Sep 28, 2010 at 10:39 PM.
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  #113  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2010, 10:55 PM
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TCH thru Montgomery

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^^ Yeah looking at My Property the southwest side of 16th ave has a ROW of about 33% additional space
Err... What's My Property and how can I access it? Is it the same thing as the City of Calgary's Assessment page?

Based on what I've seen on the assessment page, zoning page, and Google Earth, it doesn't look like the city has allowed any development on the south side of 16th Avenue within the proposed ROW since the late 70's.
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  #114  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2010, 11:18 PM
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Err... What's My Property and how can I access it? Is it the same thing as the City of Calgary's Assessment page?
http://myproperty.calgary.ca/
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  #115  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2010, 11:57 PM
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Thanks dude.
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