Pontiac/Auburn Hills/Troy, MI

[Michi]

Originally Posted by direfloyd

but as a person who visits Detroit regularly for work and pleasure and spends money, I’m not inclined to visit lately with all the negative thoughts about anyone outside the city.

What are you talking about?

[robk1982]

There isn't more of Auburn Hills to see. All the offices are "private", all the roads are "private" and all the residences are "private". The only thing you can see of Auburn Hills is the Chrysler Building from the junky-looking road network.

Don't forget The Palace (and the ginormous land fill next to it). I didn't get a good shot of either, but would have included them in this thread if I did.

[direfloyd]

Originally Posted by Michi

What are you talking about?

I'm not trying to start anything, my only point was that Detroit spends the only money it has on the downtown to attract people from the suburbs and neglects its citizens in the rest of the city; yet all I hear lately is rhetoric blaming the suburbs for everything, especially from your elected officials. That is already a repeat of what I said, I'll say no more on that.

While eating in very northern Dearborn this weekend I took a quick tour across the border of Detroit's neighborhoods there. Those neighborhoods, roads, sidewalks, mattresses in the middle of the street haven't seen a cent of Detroit's money since 1950. When you cross the border back into Dearborn the neighborhoods are intact and nice and Dearborn is no burb.

The census says my village is urban Is Warren, the 3rd largest city population in Michigan, urban? I would dare to say the cities you were calling out are more urban than Warren...

According to 2000 population density I would definitely say SE Oakland County is urban!
http://www.semcog.org/uploadedFiles/...pden_small.pdf

[themapman]

Originally Posted by Michi

I know what you're getting at, but to me, I'd say Royal Oak, Birmingham and Pontiac are all borderline "hip" places to be. If I was a 20-something moving to the Detroit area and wanted to live in the hip, urban, cool place, what are my options. Downtown, which doesn't appeal to that many yet. And the 3 burbs I mentioned, which aren't by any means urban. They're traditional towns, but urban is stretching it.

Most of the other suburbs you mentioned are just places to put your house, most easily accessible by car.

I guess it depends on one's definition of "hip" and "urban". If urban requires downtown density, then you're going to be hard-pressed to find many places like that anywhere in Michigan. The small number of childhood friends who remain in and around Metro Detroit are generally loving Birmingham and Royal Oak, and that's where many of the hot bars and restaurants are. Residential construction is still hot around those downtowns, and Pontiac has kind of hit a snag since the late 1990s but I don't think it was ever "hip". Yeah, there aren't that many yuppie enclaves in and around the D, but that's never been Detroit's MO.

[Michi]

Originally Posted by direfloyd

I'm not trying to start anything, my only point was that Detroit spends the only money it has on the downtown to attract people from the suburbs and neglects its citizens in the rest of the city; yet all I hear lately is rhetoric blaming the suburbs for everything, especially from your elected officials. That is already a repeat of what I said, I'll say no more on that.

What you're failing to recognize, is that the city is more than just political leadership. In fact, they city wouldn't have to spend any resources on downtown if it weren't for both private corporate investment and private grass roots ("mom & pop") investments. It's a lot of hard work to establish your dream in the city (I'm speaking particularly of small businesses), and a lot of that rests on who is willing to patronize your business. You shouldn't place the burdon of boycott on the private investments in the city just because you have a problem w/ its leadership or the people who think their uneducated bigotry voices actually mean something. There are people who have rolled up their sleeves, are getting dirty, and haven't showered in weeks so-to-speak because they believe in the greater mission that they are doing to contribute to this city's rebirth...despite all the garbage going on around them.

The core of any governmental body like Detroit is its people (tax base) and the private establishments that serve them (including the surrounding areas (suburbs)). I don't see why their efforts should be punished for something out of their control.


[quote]While eating in very northern Dearborn this weekend I took a quick tour across the border of Detroit's neighborhoods there. Those neighborhoods, roads, sidewalks, mattresses in the middle of the street haven't seen a cent of Detroit's money since 1950. When you cross the border back into Dearborn the neighborhoods are intact and nice and Dearborn is no burb.[quote]
Much agreed.

The census says my village is urban Is Warren, the 3rd largest city population in Michigan, urban? I would dare to say the cities you were calling out are more urban than Warren...

You have to speak of this in a certain context. In the Detroit Metro Area, Warren is considered Urban Residential. Other cities w/ this category include Roseville/Eastpionte, St. Clair Shores, Redford, Inkster/Garden City, Taylor, Royal Oak/Birmingham, Riverview/Wyandotte. The "Core City" geographically is defined by Detroit, Dearborn/Allen Park, Ferndale, Pontiac, Oak Park and the like.

So, while Warren is not part of the core establishment of the Metro Region, it is the first expansion of it, which makes it a continuation of the old urban growth patterns pre and post WWII.

According to 2000 population density I would definitely say SE Oakland County is urban!

Yes, the communities that make up the old Royal Oak Township, including Birmingham, are considered urban. Warren too, but it is mostly residential.

[Michi]

Originally Posted by themapman

I guess it depends on one's definition of "hip" and "urban". If urban requires downtown density, then you're going to be hard-pressed to find many places like that anywhere in Michigan. The small number of childhood friends who remain in and around Metro Detroit are generally loving Birmingham and Royal Oak, and that's where many of the hot bars and restaurants are. Residential construction is still hot around those downtowns, and Pontiac has kind of hit a snag since the late 1990s but I don't think it was ever "hip". Yeah, there aren't that many yuppie enclaves in and around the D, but that's never been Detroit's MO.

Yah, that's kinda what I'm getting at. To better describe my point of view, I'd ask a question...When your friends, assuming you're young/young professional, say they're going to leave MI, where do they end up? In a city, right? Yep.

Chicago, Portland, New York, LA, Dallas, ATLANTA, even Orlando, Phoenix, Boston...the list goes on and on. How many people you know say they're going to leave say Virginia and move to Detroit? Probably zero. You might get a few that come in from out of state who get a job in Detroit and have some sort of interest in urban living, so they try it in Detroit. Are they lonely, is it too much of a pioneering effort, or what? I'd say we're at that pioneering stage which is exciting, but we're just not there yet for people to really want to move here first and then look for work...I guess that's an obvious statement since MI's economy is typically lagging all others.

[hudkina]

I wouldn't say Wyandotte is "urban residential", especially considering the city has one of the largest downtowns in suburban Detroit and it was easily the third largest city in the Tri-County area (after Detroit and Pontiac) for much of the 1800's and early 1900's. I think Lincoln Park would better be described as urban residential. It doesn't really have a downtown (unless you describe the intersection of Southfield and Fort as a downtown) and was built up between the 20's and 40's to serve a lot of the steel factories that were popping up in the Downriver area at the time.

Also, I think you're not giving enough credit to Southeastern Oakland County.

The Royal Oak area has a population of nearly 200,000 in about 36 sq. mi. You'll be hard-pressed to find suburban population densities like that in most other major metropolitan areas. Hell, there are central cities that don't have such densities. And when you combine downtown Royal Oak with downtown Birmingham, downtown Ferndale, downtown Berkley, etc. you have a collection of suburbs that any city would be proud of.

And when you travel further out you have Pontiac that was basically a major Michigan city engulfed by Detroit's drive northward. You have smaller villages like Rochester, Farmington, Milford, South Lyon, Holly, etc. that are great in their own right.

And while much of the post-war growth in Oakland County has been a sprawling mess, I wouldn't dare say it is as terrible as Livingston County. In fact I would say Oakland County's post-war sprawl is actually better than what you'll find in most other post-war suburban areas. I certainly don't like that Troy has "stolen" businesses from Detroit, but it certainly isn't as bad as typical suburban office parks you find in other cities. Sure Woodward Ave through Downtown Detroit beats the hell out of Big Beaver through Troy, but I'm sure Big Beaver would kill most suburban corridors in other cities.

[ChrisLA]

Originally Posted by Michi

There isn't more of Auburn Hills to see. All the offices are "private", all the roads are "private" and all the residences are "private". The only thing you can see of Auburn Hills is the Chrysler Building from the junky-looking road network.

By the way, Chris, I thought you worked at Comerica? I don't recall any of Comerica being out in AH.
(The former headquarters...that hurts)

Michi:

You are correct I work for Comerica, and we have a huge office complex in Auburn Hills.

[direfloyd]

Michi - Thanks for the comments! I am confident Detroit will make it!!! If my wife and I worked in Detroit we'd probably live there too, but she is at UofM and I am only 3 miles from work so this is the place to be.

hudkina - Those people in Livingston County are getting theirs with the near $3.50 gas prices At my work we are trying to get a commuter train going from Howell to Ann Arbor but Livingston County doesn't want to pay a cent towards it, negotiations aren’t going very well at the moment.

[themapman]

Originally Posted by Michi

Yah, that's kinda what I'm getting at. To better describe my point of view, I'd ask a question...When your friends, assuming you're young/young professional, say they're going to leave MI, where do they end up? In a city, right? Yep.

It varies - many are in Seattle, and they live/work in the suburbs (Redmond/Bellevue/Everett). Some are Chicago, some in the DC suburbs (which are often, but not always more urban than Detroit's 'burbs), some are in SoCal (not very urban at all, possibly "hip"), a few are in Manhattan, I live in Dallas....I don't think there's any pattern. But it's important to note that almost without exception, they all moved for jobs - and they would have been happy to stay locally in Detroit if they had a job opportunity that was right for them. I know I would have. They didn't leave because they didn't think Detroit was hip or urban enough.

The only real truth is that things are definitely tending more urban among the "young professional" category than they did a generation ago. And that applies everywhere, regardless of the level of "urban" that the metro area started from - Detroit's mostly suburban, single-family ethic or Chicago's denser development pattern - the result is still the same, and that's the best news of all, for places like Detroit especially.

Originally Posted by Michi

Chicago, Portland, New York, LA, Dallas, ATLANTA, even Orlando, Phoenix, Boston...the list goes on and on. How many people you know say they're going to leave say Virginia and move to Detroit? Probably zero. You might get a few that come in from out of state who get a job in Detroit and have some sort of interest in urban living, so they try it in Detroit. Are they lonely, is it too much of a pioneering effort, or what? I'd say we're at that pioneering stage which is exciting, but we're just not there yet for people to really want to move here first and then look for work...I guess that's an obvious statement since MI's economy is typically lagging all others.

Right. And if the economy was booming locally while this greater urban migration was taking place, you'd see even more interest in Detroit. The bottom line to me is that even though the local economy (and increasingly the national economy) is in the dumps, development activity in Detroit proper is among its highest levels since the 1960s. That's astounding and a really great sign for the future. The fact that so many business leaders seem undeterred by Kwame's stupid and expensive and illegal antics is another positive for the city as a whole (although one wonders why they aren't interested in calling for more competent, honest leadership).

Detroit's probably a little behind on the broader urban trend, for a couple of reasons - Detroit fell further than most other cities, it lacks geographic and topographical constraints to development, a lack of mass transit, a very significant stigma and image problem that continues to dog the city, and of course the economy.

[jodelli]

Originally Posted by Michi

There isn't more of Auburn Hills to see. All the offices are "private", all the roads are "private" and all the residences are "private". The only thing you can see of Auburn Hills is the Chrysler Building from the junky-looking road network.

By the way, Chris, I thought you worked at Comerica? I don't recall any of Comerica being out in AH.

(The former headquarters...that hurts)

BTW those silos on the left are gone now.

jodelli

[jodelli]

Originally Posted by Michi

I know what you're getting at, but to me, I'd say Royal Oak, Birmingham and Pontiac are all borderline "hip" places to be. If I was a 20-something moving to the Detroit area and wanted to live in the hip, urban, cool place, what are my options. Downtown, which doesn't appeal to that many yet. And the 3 burbs I mentioned, which aren't by any means urban. They're traditional towns, but urban is stretching it.

Most of the other suburbs you mentioned are just places to put your house, most easily accessible by car.

IAWTP.
Royal Oak would make a nice north side Chicago neighborhood, but it wouldn't be considered particularly bohemian. Pontiac might become that, with time.

jodelli

[Guiltyspark]

Originally Posted by robk1982

Don't forget The Palace (and the ginormous land fill next to it). I didn't get a good shot of either, but would have included them in this thread if I did.

I love that landfill. (I live 1.5 miles away) and it is the highest point in Metro Detroit (I can see downtown Detroit 30 miles away on my drive home). Lots of hate for metro-detroit here. Most of the people I know love it (I am 25, most of my friends are 21-31). Auburn Hills has a ton office buildings, not just the Chrysler WH. Which by the way is the 2nd largest office building in the U.S. after the Ren Cen in Detroit.

Things Auburn Hills has.
-A automotive world headquarters.
-A major University (Oakland University).
-The main campus of Oakland Community College.
-A pro basketball arena.
-A growing and walkable downtown.
-A 1 billion dollar housing development (I believe each individual house starts at well over 2 million dollars).

Anyway, I like it here. I can walk to University and drive up to my parents lake. There is good shopping and entertainment close by. What else do you need?

[Docta_Love]

I love that landfill. (I live 1.5 miles away) and it is the highest point in Metro Detroit

I find that to be funny and sad at the same time, i'm not sure by what parameters it's classified by but i know that the hill that the Ford Proving Grounds in Romeo is the highest point in S.E. MI (i consider all of Macomb County to be part of Metro Detroit). There was certainly some negative energy directed towards the region, but first of all speaking from experince as someone who has spent nearly all of his 23 years of life in Farmington Hills. Most Oakland county cities with the exceptions being those located along the Woodward Corridor, lack uniqueness to put it kindly. Don't get me wrong there are exceptions my personal example being that although 75% of the Farmington/Farmington Hills area is made up of boring suburban subdivisions. Some of the older ones from the 60s and early 70s have a certain retro styling that combined with a level of natural conservation makes the city somewhat interesting and unique. Add in the art-deco storefronts along Grand River and the Victorian homes that surround the area develops a certain charm. But all and all if you cannot afford a lake house or don't live near Woodward Oakland Co. is as dull as any other upscale suburban region in the country. I would also suspect that since this thread is from '08 the politically charged atmosphere due to the auto bailout lead to some of the criticism. There was a national perception of Detroit as being financially irresponsible as represented by GM & Chrysler's execs showing up to congress on company owned private jets with their hats in hand. I don't want to reopen a debate that ended years ago though. I love the street level pics of Pontiac, with all of the wealth around it, its a shame downtown is as rough around the edges as it is. Also what is up with that one building in downtown Pontiac with the giant concrete pillar sticking out of it?