Denver Area Transportation Thread - Page 172

Cirrus · #**3421** Posted: **May 8, 2012, 7:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

Most people with money DO NOT want to ride local buses.

Choice riders (aka most people) take whatever form of transportation is most convenient to them. Making it hard to pay is a barrier to entry that seriously degrades the convenience of transit.

Imagine being forced to pay for the gas for each car trip individually before each trip begins, using cash. Imagine if you had to take a bus ride to an ATM just to get cash to start your car. Driving would plummet.

Brainpathology · #**3422** Posted: **May 8, 2012, 8:51 PM**

Gracious... you can buy soda with a CC at a vending machine in some places now. You can pay your parking tickets with a CC online. You can renew/apply for licenses for anything from hair styling to medicine online with a CC. Basically, you can buy anything anywhere with a CC. Every city I've ever been to for work lets you get tickets or passes with a CC to use the transit system, with the possible exception of Toronto but I'm pretty sure that was just me not wanting to bother with the exchange fees on my card.

We can talk all day about how many riders it effects, how much time it saves (and frankly just having that discussion makes us look just as dumb and out of touch as RTD is right now). Even if Denver was the very very first place to let people actually buy tickets to ride in a convenient late 20th century way it would STILL be way past time to do this.

Every single person who interacts with RTD to find that they have to get cash gets the immediate (and accurate) reaction in their heads that the agency is stupid, incompetent, out of touch, or all three. It's that simple. 5 years ago it was time to fix it. Now it's an embarrassment.

Zmapper · #**3423** Posted: **May 8, 2012, 8:53 PM**

I was the person who did the Google Map featured a page back. If anyone is interested, I have done close to 200 different maps mostly for the heck of it. A master map is here: http://g.co/maps/qzwme

Anyway, I am looking for Denver Tramway or RTD maps dating from around the 1950-1980s time range. If anyone has a scanned map, I would gladly appreciate taking a look at it, and possibly converting it over to Google Maps format.

The Dirt · #**3424** Posted: **May 8, 2012, 9:43 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

Gracious... you can buy soda with a CC at a vending machine in some places now. You can pay your parking tickets with a CC online. You can renew/apply for licenses for anything from hair styling to medicine online with a CC. Basically, you can buy anything anywhere with a CC. Every city I've ever been to for work lets you get tickets or passes with a CC to use the transit system, with the possible exception of Toronto but I'm pretty sure that was just me not wanting to bother with the exchange fees on my card.

We can talk all day about how many riders it effects, how much time it saves (and frankly just having that discussion makes us look just as dumb and out of touch as RTD is right now). Even if Denver was the very very first place to let people actually buy tickets to ride in a convenient late 20th century way it would STILL be way past time to do this.

Every single person who interacts with RTD to find that they have to get cash gets the immediate (and accurate) reaction in their heads that the agency is stupid, incompetent, out of touch, or all three. It's that simple. 5 years ago it was time to fix it. Now it's an embarrassment.

I think I'm just going to drive downtown and park. It seems to be 1000 times more convenient. I can pay with my credit card right at the meter. I don't even have to go to a kiosk and get a silly ticket to put on my dash. I don't even mind the fact that they charge for a 1 hour minimum, even if I'm not going to be there that long. I almost never, ever have cash on hand. I only get cash when I check out at Costco and spend it on their ridiculously cheap food court food. The remaining $18 seems to just go poof before the end of the week.

Here's hoping that once the commuter rail stop open in 2016 and I get a job that requires me to leave the house, I can use my credit card on the train.

bunt_q · #**3425** Posted: **May 8, 2012, 9:55 PM**

Fortunately, the Eagle P3 folks - or any other private operator, for that matter - would never be so stupid as to do anything that would make it difficult for them to take your money. Never in a million years.

It says a lot about transit and its mentality, actually, that fare collection is such an afterthought. Traditionally, the tax man was the one bit of government that worked without fail. You knew they'd find a way to collect those taxes. I always imagined a rough and tumble Old West town having two visible signs of government - the sheriff, and the tax man.

That transit has to be forced into efficient fare collection/enforcement is...interesting. If conceptually we think of transit as a public service first, with the fees only of secondary concern, maybe we ought to consider eliminating fares altogether.

SnyderBock · #**3426** Posted: **May 8, 2012, 10:03 PM**

I almost never carry cash on me, I use plastic for everything. Most my poor friends, don't carry cash on them either, but that's because they don't have any =) They don't have plastic either, for that matter.

Cirrus · #**3427** Posted: **May 9, 2012, 2:27 AM**

So how is the P3 going to work? I mean, those lines will still be branded as RTD, right? Or no? And does your RTD eco-pass cover them, or will the fare structure be different?

SnyderBock · #**3428** Posted: **May 9, 2012, 8:47 PM**

I think it's supposed to appear seamless, to the average user. Much like how the average user won't know if they board a bus RTD operated or one that RTD has contracted out.

RTD has final say over the fare structure and any changes to it over the years. The trains should also be painted in RTD colors scheme.

It won't seem like two different systems. It should appear to be all RTD "The Ride," to the average user.

bunt_q · #**3429** Posted: **May 9, 2012, 8:59 PM**

If we paint "The Ride" in the same tacky colors on our airport trains, just shoot me now.

But yes, the P3 agreements do keep fare structures in RTD's control. Not sure about TVM selection, though, which is what I was thinking about. I don't know enough about the split in authority/responsibilities at that level of detail.

bcp · #**3430** Posted: **May 10, 2012, 9:41 PM**

courtesy of flour enterprises inc, thanks.

- silver?
- at grade stations?
- new RTD color scheme?
- no sitting facing strangers or awkwardly touching knees!!!

wong21fr · #**3431** Posted: **May 10, 2012, 10:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcp

- silver?
- at grade stations?
- new RTD color scheme?
- no sitting facing strangers or awkwardly touching knees!!!

You forget to mention the consistent station platform cover.

I'll miss the awkward touching of knees. An awkward touch, a shy glance, such is the beginning of a beautiful romance.... or an alcohol-induced night of regret.

Cirrus · #**3432** Posted: **May 11, 2012, 4:42 AM**

I've said this before, but I think those trains look *great*.

Not the forgettable blue stripe down the side, but the basic steel frame. It is unapologeticly a big ol' train, and I like that. None of this feel-good, wimpy-looking crap that sunbelt cities buy, but an honest blue-collar workhorse. I love that these scream "old-school Philadelphia" instead of "Phoenix trying to look kewl".

That stripe stinks, though. Just don't paint it, at that point.

bunt_q · #**3433** Posted: **May 11, 2012, 5:02 AM**

I can't tell you how many value engineering opportunities I see in those three photos. Amenities schmamenities.

SnyderBock · #**3434** Posted: **May 11, 2012, 7:26 AM**

I think the trains look better, with the blue stripe. It really looks good. The stations are built on a tight budget, so yes, value engineering was probably required (not optional). Stations can always be upgraded, at some future point in time.

EngiNerd · #**3435** Posted: **May 11, 2012, 2:06 PM**

So do they have the same floor height, but they just dropped the tracks down to make it a level entry? Will all DMU and EMU trains be like this, and all LRT (West, I-225) be similar to the existing?

wong21fr · #**3436** Posted: **May 11, 2012, 3:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

So do they have the same floor height, but they just dropped the tracks down to make it a level entry? Will all DMU and EMU trains be like this, and all LRT (West, I-225) be similar to the existing?

EMU will have raised platforms, the LRT lines (West and I-225) will be the same as the the existing platforms.

EMU units are just a bit bigger.

bunt_q · #**3437** Posted: **May 11, 2012, 4:03 PM**

Light rail vehicles need to be compatible with downtown street curbs. So for Denver, that means raising the curbs, or not, and doing high-blocks for wheelchairs.

Any other vehicle that will only operate at specially-built transit platforms is just built standard for level boarding.

bcp · #**3438** Posted: **May 11, 2012, 4:03 PM**

oh, is this what we will have on the gold line as well?

north metro, if ever built - EMU?
boulder, if EVER built - EMU?

wong21fr · #**3439** Posted: **May 11, 2012, 4:42 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Light rail vehicles need to be compatible with downtown street curbs. So for Denver, that means raising the curbs, or not, and doing high-blocks for wheelchairs.

Any other vehicle that will only operate at specially-built transit platforms is just built standard for level boarding.

The interesting question is this:

Currently there are four stations street curb ones. Every other station is either grade-separated or will be pulled off the current LRT system with the Central Corridor streetcar/one LRT unit quasi-streetcar. So, do we continue to decrease the user experience to accommodate four stations out of 50, or do we eventually change the stations for level boarding?

bunt_q · #**3440** Posted: **May 11, 2012, 4:44 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Currently there are four stations street curb ones. Every other station is either grade-separated or will be pulled off the current LRT system with the Central Corridor streetcar/one LRT unit quasi-streetcar. So, do we continue to decrease the user experience to accommodate four stations out of 50, or do we eventually change the stations for level boarding?

It was 4 out of 50 originally. But now we've built every other platform to those heights as well. We'd have to raise every platform now. (And re-fit our maintenance facilities.) More likely that somebody develops a low-floor vehicle that's 3-inches lower someday, but even then, I'd say we're locked in.