Denver Area Transportation Thread - Page 176

EngiNerd · #**3501** Posted: **May 28, 2012, 4:25 PM**

Your photos are amazing, really great job. Love the one of downtown from the Highlands, makes downtown look super dense.

bunt_q · #**3502** Posted: **Jun 4, 2012, 4:05 PM**

Can anybody make it to one of these BRT bus showings? I can't, unfortunately, but I would really like to see some photos/commentary on the vehicles.

Demo BRT bus to be displayed in Denver area this week

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_20...nver-area-this

See the bus

The model will be available for viewing at the following locations:

Tuesday: Market Street Station on 16th Street between Market and Blake, 8 a.m. to 1:30 p.m. Westminster in the bus slip ramp on the north (westbound) side of U.S. 36, 3 to 6 p.m.

Wednesday: Boulder at the Municipal Building, at the corner of Canyon and Broadway, 8 a.m. to 1:30 p.m. Longmont at the park-n-Ride at 8th Avenue and Coffman Street, 3 to 6 p.m.

Thursday: Broomfield inside the park-n-Ride off U.S. 287 at Gate B, 7 to 9 a.m. Louisville/Superior in the parking lot on the south (eastbound) side of U.S. 36 at McCaslin Boulevard, 3 to 6 p.m.

bcp · #**3503** Posted: **Jun 4, 2012, 7:18 PM**

so my GF and I (she is in the travel business) had a debate over the train line to DIA...specifically, the pricing model it will use. PPP aside, my sense was that it would fall into the current zone plan (i think it goes A,B C and D?) with a maximum around $4 each way.

her take was "no way, you are an idiot"...this is a common response from her...she think that it will be much more when you look at the $50 cab ride (their union may fight this...) and the $11 cost for SkyRide from downtown, the $14 cost from SFO to SF etc...

I fear that she may have a point, but really really hope that RTD is keeping it's head on straight with the zone system and not setting this line apart from the others.

anybody have insight?

bcp

SnyderBock · #**3504** Posted: **Jun 4, 2012, 9:29 PM**

I would suspect reasonable fares for the zomes between DUS and Peoria/Smith Road Station. Traveling into that last "DIA" Zone, would likely be a significant increase. I would bet on fares from DUS all the way to DIA to be in-line with skyride, $10-$14 range. However, DUS to Peoria/Smith Road, I would hope wouldn't be more than $6-$8 range. These are only guesses though.

DenverInfill · #**3505** Posted: **Jun 4, 2012, 10:08 PM**

I agree. It seems like a $10-$12 fare one-way to DIA from Downtown would be reasonable. That seems in line with other cities, just off the top of my head. Most people will still see it as much cheaper than a cab and more predictable than a private shuttle bus. If I were coming into Denver and was heading Downtown, I wouldn't hesitate to pay as much as $20 to be zipped from the air terminal into the heart of Downtown on a public transit train.

bcp · #**3506** Posted: **Jun 4, 2012, 10:45 PM**

yes, but a cab-ride from downtown to the end-of the line SW or SE stations would be astronomical as well....and the distance is comparable, its 19 miles from DUS to the end of the line on SE...24 miles from DUS to DIA.

crossing all 4 fare zones now (A through D) costs $5.00....so why the jacked rate if indeed that happens? just because i WOULD pay it does not justify it from a system-perspective (which is the whole point, yes?)

bunt_q · #**3507** Posted: **Jun 5, 2012, 12:21 AM**

I would expect a completely reconfigured fare structure as more lines are completed. There's no end to the problems that we'll face if it's strictly distance-based. If the airport is $12...what's Longmont?

CharlesCO · #**3508** Posted: **Jun 5, 2012, 3:32 AM**

What I want to know is...how long is it until RTD converts to a turnstile system like almost every other serious rail system in the world? Surely the amount of money brought in from ensuring that everyone has a valid ticket would offset the cost of turnstile installation?

—Words of someone who pays $9 to get into San Francisco on BART every weekend.

wong21fr · #**3509** Posted: **Jun 5, 2012, 4:06 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesCO

What I want to know is...how long is it until RTD converts to a turnstile system like almost every other serious rail system in the world? Surely the amount of money brought in from ensuring that everyone has a valid ticket would offset the cost of turnstile installation?

—Words of someone who pays $9 to get into San Francisco on BART every weekend.

You're assuming that fare avoidance is fairly high on the lines. According to RTD, the payment rate is something like 95+ %.

Maybe RTD will go to a turnstile system after the decide to actually cover the platforms which will probably be when a major system refit is merited in 2040 or so.

Cirrus · #**3510** Posted: **Jun 5, 2012, 4:15 AM**

Nobody builds turnstiles for transit systems with on-street stations. Well, almost nobody.

CharlesCO · #**3511** Posted: **Jun 5, 2012, 4:59 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by wong21fr

You're assuming that fare avoidance is fairly high on the lines. According to RTD, the payment rate is something like 95+ %.

Maybe RTD will go to a turnstile system after the decide to actually cover the platforms which will probably be when a major system refit is merited in 2040 or so.

Frankly, I'm surprised it's that high. I talked to some friends who visited Denver for the first time and they thought that the light rail was completely free. Also, whenever I ride the light rail (which, granted, is very rarely), I feel like I'm the only one I see buying a ticket.

bunt_q · #**3512** Posted: **Jun 5, 2012, 12:14 PM**

That's because people have passes. And it's a good thing, too. On the rare occasions a group of people do have to buy tickets, it's slow and messy.

I also get fare-inspected more often than not these days, which is a welcome change. Although I doubt it's 95%...if it were that high, the fare inspectors' salaries would make it not worth the effort.

bobg · #**3513** Posted: **Jun 5, 2012, 3:01 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesCO

What I want to know is...how long is it until RTD converts to a turnstile system like almost every other serious rail system in the world? Surely the amount of money brought in from ensuring that everyone has a valid ticket would offset the cost of turnstile installation?

—Words of someone who pays $9 to get into San Francisco on BART every weekend.

I do not really buy into the notion that almost every serious system has turnstiles. I remember last time I was in Central Europe (Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Czech Republic, Hungary, and a few smaller others) every rail system I encountered was proof of payment. I think everyone would agree that at least Germany, Austria, and Switzerland have serious rail systems. Those collective countries encompass hundreds of tram lines, dozens of metro's and commuter rail systems.

Besides this has come up in earlier debates people have had on this forum: I do not like the idea of doing something just because we do not want to appear less advanced. With a tight transit budget RTD needs to focus on things that actually add value to the organization and right now by all measurements the cost/benefit of a turnstile system just is not there. If that fare evasion rate skyrockets than it might be worth looking into.

Brainpathology · #**3514** Posted: **Jun 5, 2012, 5:49 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobg

Besides this has come up in earlier debates people have had on this forum: I do not like the idea of doing something just because we do not want to appear less advanced. With a tight transit budget RTD needs to focus on things that actually add value to the organization and right now by all measurements the cost/benefit of a turnstile system just is not there. If that fare evasion rate skyrockets than it might be worth looking into.

Not only that but I think the entire board of RTD would need to be taken by pitchfork and torch and put into a dungeon if they did turnstiles before a workable CC payment system.

Cirrus · #**3515** Posted: **Jun 5, 2012, 6:53 PM**

Let's do a quick review of rail fares to airports. Using the trip planners on transit agency websites, this is what I get:

Code:

CITY		AGENCY	MODE	FARE	TRIP
Atlanta 	MARTA 	Metro	$2.50	Airport to Five Points
Baltimore	MTA	LRT	$1.60	BWI to Lexington Market
Baltimore	MARC	Rgnl	$4.00	BWI to Penn Station
Cleveland	RTA	Metro	$2.25	Hopkins Airport to Tower City
Chicago		CTA	Metro	$2.25	O'Hare to Clark/Lake
Chicago		CTA	Metro	$2.25	Midway to Clark/Lake
Minneapolis	Metro	LRT	$1.75	Lindbergh Terminal to Nicollet Mall
Philadelphia	SEPTA	Rgnl	$6.25	Airport to Suburban Station
Portland	TriMet	LRT	$2.40	Airport to Pioneer Square
San Francisco	BART	Metro	$8.10	SFO to Montgomery Street
Seattle		Sound	LRT	$2.75	Seatac to Westlake
St Louis	Metro	LRT	$2.75	Lambert Main to Convention Center
Washington	WMATA	Metro	$2.35	National Airport to Metro Center
Washington	MARC	Rgnl	$6.00	BWI to Union Station

Here's the same list, re-sorted from most expensive to least:

Code:

CITY		AGENCY	MODE	FARE	TRIP
San Francisco	BART	Metro	$8.10	SFO to Montgomery Street
Philadelphia	SEPTA	Rgnl	$6.25	Airport to Suburban Station
Washington	MARC	Rgnl	$6.00	BWI to Union Station
Baltimore	MARC	Rgnl	$4.00	BWI to Penn Station
Atlanta 	MARTA 	Metro	$2.50	Airport to Five Points
Portland	TriMet	LRT	$2.40	Airport to Pioneer Square
Seattle		Sound	LRT	$2.75	Seatac to Westlake
St Louis	Metro	LRT	$2.75	Lambert Main to Convention Center
Washington	WMATA	Metro	$2.35	National Airport to Metro Center
Cleveland	RTA	Metro	$2.25	Hopkins Airport to Tower City
Chicago		CTA	Metro	$2.25	O'Hare to Clark/Lake
Chicago		CTA	Metro	$2.25	Midway to Clark/Lake
Minneapolis	Metro	LRT	$1.75	Lindbergh Terminal to Nicollet Mall
Baltimore	MTA	LRT	$1.60	BWI to Lexington Market

The interesting thing here is that after San Francisco, all of the regional rail connections are then clustered at the top of the list. They range from $4-$6.25.

Based on precedent from other cities, Denver's airport train should probably have a fare somewhere in the $6 range. RTD might be able to get away with a little bit more, but anything above $8.10 would be setting a record, and anything above $10 would be unheard of.

Pip111 · #**3516** Posted: **Jun 6, 2012, 2:58 PM**

Hey all, was just reading an article on Westword about Ken's tour of Union Station that I sadly missed.

Anyway, this quote stuck out at me:

Quote:

This was Schroeppel's first tour since the opening of the Light Rail Plaza, and he discussed how the Plaza fits into Denver's transportation future, revealing that light rail may be supplemented by streetcars running into Five Points and perhaps even a subway system under 16th Street.

Ken, do we have to do the tour to get your thoughts on this, or will you explain a little bit more here since Westword's article doesn't delve into this at all?

Thanks!

trubador · #**3517** Posted: **Jun 6, 2012, 3:08 PM**

sorry guys not the best pics of the bus, but here are a few. The bus they showed had 3 doors, which is probably overkill and takes away some seats, so maybe this will change in the future.

Brainpathology · #**3518** Posted: **Jun 6, 2012, 3:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pip111

Hey all, was just reading an article on Westword about Ken's tour of Union Station that I sadly missed.

Anyway, this quote stuck out at me:

Ken, do we have to do the tour to get your thoughts on this, or will you explain a little bit more here since Westword's article doesn't delve into this at all?

Thanks!

What's "commuter light rail"?

bunt_q · #**3519** Posted: **Jun 6, 2012, 3:24 PM**

If you're interested in that, and/or other transit trends, future possibilities, sustainable urbanism, etc. etc., you should join our happy little group at the next event:

Denver New Rail~Volutionaries facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Denve...36334739826027

Flyer:

Typo in the email address there, but if you have any questions, feel free to email/PM me.

wong21fr · #**3520** Posted: **Jun 6, 2012, 3:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunt_q

If you're interested in that, and/or other transit trends, future possibilities, sustainable urbanism, etc. etc., you should join our happy little group at the next event:

Very cool, did you guys just get this started?