KC Co-thread: A tale of three "centres"

[urbanactivist]

For the accompanying phot thread, click this link...

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=151803

I had the opportunity to look at three different areas in Kansas City... a new town centre, an "old" town centre, and the regular downtown. To the typical urbanist, the downtown is immediately preferred, but are there any advantages to the other two?? What might they be? what are these models doing to improve the overall environment?? Is this growing model really a better alternative than our perfectly usable downtowns??

[Don B.]

I grew up in KC and lived there for 25 years, and honestly I have no idea what you are talking about.

There's downtown KC, which I interpret to be the "regular downtown" you mention. But the "new" and "old town" centres? WTF?

There's the Plaza-Westport area, which nobody considers a "town centre," least of all the people that live there. I'm guessing this may be one of the "town centres" you refer to, but again, as to which is anyone's guess. It was built in the 20s and 30s, so maybe the "old town centre?"

Then there's Crown Center between downtown and the Plaza, which is not a "town centre" by any stretch of the imagination. Since this was built in the 70s and 80s, maybe this is the "new town centre?"

Then there are suburban edge cities like Overland Park along I-435 that might also be considered the "new town centre." Many suburbs of KC also have their own downtown areas as well.

You need to shed more light on your basic assumptions before this thread is viable for a city discussion thread.

--don

[MplsTodd]

I've been through KC several times and don't see why Don should be so confused. I think Urban is merely citing those three developments and not claiming they are the only ones for KC.

I'd certainly classify the Plaza District as a old style town center. In fact, I'd go further and claim that the Plaza District may in fact be the nation's first pre-planned town center to be developed by a private developer (J.C. Nichols). How is the Plaza District not a town center? My simplified definition of a town center would be a mixed-use district of notable size, with pedestrian orientation.


Regarding Urban's q's, I admit that I don't know all the details, but I believe that the Plaza District is likely centrally managed, which can allow for consistent hours, uniformly strong retail tenants, and economies of scale in landscaping and cleaning costs. That is one weakness of downtown, which has numerous individual owners who often view retail as secondary to office use. Of course, a downside to central management is that they often prefer national chains to independent retailers, which can cause an area to look like your average upscale regional mall.

The Plaza District also has very high density housing in the immediate area which no doubt helps the success of the retailers and the overall vitality of the area.

The new center looks like a typical lifestyle center which is likely surrounded by a large parking lot. Are there other uses (Housing, offices, hotels) nearby which make it more of a town center rather than just a lifestyle center? This development is trying to immitate the architectural character of the Plaza District, but seems to lack the fit into an existing urban (or dense suburban) neighborhood.

[Don B.]

^ You are making assumptions which I'm not sure the originator of this thread is making. He didn't cite any development in particular - he just threw around some weird names and left it to us to figure out what real areas those names apply to. Go back and re-read my post again and then what he posted.

It's not "the Plaza District." It's merely "The Plaza." But of course, you didn't live there so you may not know these things. The Plaza does have a central management company (J.C. Nichols), but not the entire Plaza is managed by them. The Plaza area encompasses an area larger than what you think.

As for the "new center" comments (if this is in fact Crown Center), you are so far off base as to be laughable. Crown Center looks nothing like any sort of "typical lifestyle center likely surrounded by a large parking lot." It's also not adjacent to any sort of "suburban neighborhood." It is located in between downtown Kansas City and the Plaza, and the surrounding areas were first developed in the 1910 to 1930 time frame.

Look before you leap. I'm not discussing this any further until the original poster returns to this thread and defines:

"new town centre" - Crown Center?
"old town centre" - The Plaza
"regular downtown" - Downtown Kansas City, Mo.

Otherwise, the possibilities are almost dizzying.

--don

[urbanactivist]

Don, you are confused by my point in this thread. The photo and discussion threads are meant to be representative of national trends, and I simply picked three areas in Kansas City to show that. Every metro in the U.S. has some form of these three... a traditional urban core, an older shopping district (which typically displays some form of walkability), and one of these new "town centres" which is located in any number of suburbs.

The reason for using Westport to represent the "old town centre" is because it is clearly a prototype for the suburban areas that are being built now... compacted areas that stress walkability, but only have upscale, mall-style shops. The current suburb trends were created to reflect areas like Westport (which is pretty clearly shown in the photo thread).

I thought I was clear that this is not meant to define any part of Kansas City specifically, but just to show three representative areas that relate to many places in the country. Why don't you try reading the thread start again with those thoughts in mind.

[urbanactivist]

Originally Posted by MplsTodd

I've been through KC several times and don't see why Don should be so confused. I think Urban is merely citing those three developments and not claiming they are the only ones for KC.

I'd certainly classify the Plaza District as a old style town center. In fact, I'd go further and claim that the Plaza District may in fact be the nation's first pre-planned town center to be developed by a private developer (J.C. Nichols). How is the Plaza District not a town center? My simplified definition of a town center would be a mixed-use district of notable size, with pedestrian orientation.


Regarding Urban's q's, I admit that I don't know all the details, but I believe that the Plaza District is likely centrally managed, which can allow for consistent hours, uniformly strong retail tenants, and economies of scale in landscaping and cleaning costs. That is one weakness of downtown, which has numerous individual owners who often view retail as secondary to office use. Of course, a downside to central management is that they often prefer national chains to independent retailers, which can cause an area to look like your average upscale regional mall.

The Plaza District also has very high density housing in the immediate area which no doubt helps the success of the retailers and the overall vitality of the area.

The new center looks like a typical lifestyle center which is likely surrounded by a large parking lot. Are there other uses (Housing, offices, hotels) nearby which make it more of a town center rather than just a lifestyle center? This development is trying to immitate the architectural character of the Plaza District, but seems to lack the fit into an existing urban (or dense suburban) neighborhood.

The high-rise residential in the Westport area (along with the amazing canal) just can't be beat!! LOL it's funny... I was up in the Woodlands, TX yesterday for a conference, and as I was looking around, all I could think of was Westport, only much newer and still a bit smaller. They're even digging up a new Riverwalk as we type!

In my opinion, Westport really is great... although it does detract retail potential from downtown, the areas are all still kinda close together. If a rail line were ever added between the plaza and downtown, both would greatly benefit.

Legends is out in the suburbs of KCK right around the Johnson county line, and YES, it's surrounded by huge parking lots, a big box furniture store, and the Kansas Motor Speedway!! There's nothing urban about it.

[oldmanshirt]

Thanks for shining the spotlight on KC. Downtown has a lot of potential, but the feeling I get from folks here is that now that the P&L Dist is up and running, the work to revive downtown is done. And this is just from the folks who even know about the P&L Dist! DT still has a long way to go, and outside of a few blocks around the Sprint Center and Conv Center, its looked dead every time I've gone down there. Crown Center is a little livlier, but you still get the sense that its day in the sun has passed. The Plaza will always be a hot location, but like you, I wish it was closer and more integrated with downtown, even by nothing more than a rail line.

There's really nothing to say about Legends. My wife and I both agreed that its basically a pre-fabbed downtown.

[woodrow]

Responded to you in photo thread as well. You are misnaming the Plaza. It is NOT Westport. Westport was not a planned development, but an organic, changing part of the city. In fact, it is the oldest part of the city. The Country Club Plaza is/was a planned development of J. C. Nichols and was the retail and office anchor for his extensive residential real estate development on KC's southwest side.
Westport - village from the 1830's incorporated into KC in the late 1800's.
Plaza - development at then southern edge of KC in the 1920's

[rs913]

The new center looks like a typical lifestyle center which is likely surrounded by a large parking lot. Are there other uses (Housing, offices, hotels) nearby which make it more of a town center rather than just a lifestyle center? This development is trying to immitate the architectural character of the Plaza District, but seems to lack the fit into an existing urban (or dense suburban) neighborhood.

I get over to KC once in awhile to visit family, and visited the Legends on a Friday night on the way from the airport last time. (BTW, it's pretty clear the "new town center" in the OP's photo thread refers to this...how did Crown Center enter the discussion?)

There's nothing even remotely urban about the Legends - in fact, it may be the most spread-out lifestyle center I've seen, in terms of land use and parking as well as the isolation of its location. It's even home to one of the largest single stores in the country, the Nebraska Furniture Mart, which at 450,000 square feet is the size of 3 Targets (!!) There are no plans for residences or offices as far as I know. It's almost as if the developers said, "let's take all these urbanist trends and go as far in the opposite direction as we can."

Perhaps not coincidentally, it's very theme-park-like and family-oriented. Every single restaurant is of the TGI Friday's/Margaritaville variety and was packed with screaming kids. I also noticed a lot of teens around the movie theater, which was surprising, as it's a long drive for just about all of them.

Once gas prices reach a certain level, this godawful place will be hit hard. Can't say I'd be sorry. Thank goodness for the Plaza as well as the gradual revitalization of KC's downtown.

[Don B.]

Oops, I forgot to check the "accompanying" photo thread. Sorry!

Okay, Legends is hideous.

The Plaza is definitely where it's at. If I ever moved back to my hometown, I would be near or in the Plaza (depending on whether I could afford it).

Downtown has improved a lot since I left in 1993, but it's not as vibrant or busy as the Plaza.

KC needs to get light/commuter rail going. A n/s line running from the airport through Gladstone, then North Kansas City, then the River Market, downtown KC and south along State Line Road to I-435. An e/w line running from Topeka through Lawrence through Johnson County (possibly Merriam, etc.), then jog north into KCK, cross the state line, hit downtown, the stadiums, Independence, and terminating in Blue Springs. Those would be nice starter lines.

--don

[urbanactivist]

Originally Posted by Don B.

Oops, I forgot to check the "accompanying" photo thread. Sorry!

Okay, Legends is hideous.

The Plaza is definitely where it's at. If I ever moved back to my hometown, I would be near or in the Plaza (depending on whether I could afford it).

Downtown has improved a lot since I left in 1993, but it's not as vibrant or busy as the Plaza.

KC needs to get light/commuter rail going. A n/s line running from the airport through Gladstone, then North Kansas City, then the River Market, downtown KC and south along State Line Road to I-435. An e/w line running from Topeka through Lawrence through Johnson County (possibly Merriam, etc.), then jog north into KCK, cross the state line, hit downtown, the stadiums, Independence, and terminating in Blue Springs. Those would be nice starter lines.

--don

Yeah, those would be like dream starter lines... E/W would be over 100 miles.

KC has such an awesome core... so much better than Houston's! The vitality and connectivity work so well. But then you have these ridiculously long freeways that just seem to go NOWHERE. I haven't lived there since the 90s, and 435 doesn't look a bit different... it's still a barren wasteland of freeway that leads out to one or two lonely suburbs at each corner. It seemed like KC had more freeway miles than Houston does, but with only about half the amount of stuff!

[WilliamTheArtist]

Originally Posted by urbanactivistTX

For the accompanying phot thread, click this link...

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=151803

I had the opportunity to look at three different areas in Kansas City... a new town centre, an "old" town centre, and the regular downtown. To the typical urbanist, the downtown is immediately preferred, but are there any advantages to the other two?? What might they be? what are these models doing to improve the overall environment?? Is this growing model really a better alternative than our perfectly usable downtowns??

Its fascinating how similar KC is to Tulsa in this respect, and as someone has mentioned, many cities have similar types of areas.

Of the areas in KC the area around the Plaza would be my choice of area to live in. The Plaza itself is nice with plenty of shops, restaurants, busy street life, etc. and is simply a nice looking and pleasing environment. The large number of residential and office buildings around it give it a more urban feel, its like,,, old world charm, fountains, trees and trendy, is nestled between a canyon of tall buildings. The older neighborhoods with their grand homes nearby also lend to the "niceness" of the area.

The equivalent area in Tulsa would be Utica Square. Was originally an old outdoor style shopping center. Said to be one of the first of its kind in the US actually. Couple of miles from downtown, surrounded by neighborhoods of genteel mansions and has over the years seen larger buildings and highrise and midrise living/office grow up around it. Again, I would prefer the area over downtown simply because I like the beauty, the upscale nature, its quiet yet bustling with everything you need in walking distance. An ideal "Urban Village".

....... It tends to cater to the more upscale and wealthy crowd that likes mid-town living. I would looove to live in that area, but cant afford it lol.

One of our closest suburbs is also getting a new "urban center". A billion dollar development with a main street, football field sized Bellagio styled fountain, apartments surrounding structured parking, offices, shops, restaurants, etc. For a while until downtown really picks back up, it may end up having more foot traffic, and more often than our real downtown.

........It will cater to the upper middle class young families that are in the area and their kids/teenagers.

Downtown on the other hand, and areas around it, is seeing a slow rebirth. No need to go into details. But it seems to cater more towards the "real urban" crowd. The young professionals, empty nesters, artists, gays, college age people, etc. And it also acts as an areas center, with large facilities, stadiums, arena, ballpark, Performing Arts, and other entertainment areas with supporting infrastructure.


It seems that each different area has a definite personality and generally attracts a different group of people. Not sure if those demographic patterns have any similarities in KC though. I do think each area adds to the city as a whole enabling a person who would consider moving to, say Tulsa, to have different lifestyle options to choose from. Thus it helps to make our city more attractive.

[oldmanshirt]

Originally Posted by urbanactivistTX

Yeah, those would be like dream starter lines... E/W would be over 100 miles.

KC has such an awesome core... so much better than Houston's! The vitality and connectivity work so well. But then you have these ridiculously long freeways that just seem to go NOWHERE. I haven't lived there since the 90s, and 435 doesn't look a bit different... it's still a barren wasteland of freeway that leads out to one or two lonely suburbs at each corner. It seemed like KC had more freeway miles than Houston does, but with only about half the amount of stuff!

KC still has by far the most miles of freeway per capita (DFW is a distant second), but you're right, many of them stretch on for miles with little or no scenery or frontage development to speak of. The obvious exception is 435, 35, and 69 highway through Johnson Co, stretches of which actually remind me of a miniature Dallas or Houston, but the other 4/5ths of 435 either go through semi-rural, rural, or bleak industrial areas. Its kind of depressing, and I usually take I-70 or 71 hwy through the core if I can, just to have something interesting to look at.

[SuburbanNation]

its a waste of space that KC doesnt have at least a modern streetcar from downtown to waldo, considering it has a dedicated right of way at least half the way and appropriate density in that great long north/south corridor.

[ignatius]

As a 20+ year KC resident, here is my summary...

Plaza: A touristy center 4 mile S of downtown with mall like shops in Spanish urbane-like setting. As touristy places go, this one's pretty livable, like a village. Has enough population that it doesn't depend on tourists to survive. I live between Plaza and Westport.

Legends: Suburban shop-o-tainment hell with big box stores, racetrack, Orlando style entertainment targeting sanitized suburban families. A giant Rainforest Cafe fabricated mess. Feels like the set of the Truman Show.

City Market (N downtown): Real neighborhood with a farmers market, ethnic stores/restaurants, near the river, true urbane lofts, population is increasing moderately with more lofts coming. Kinda cool to visit as a tourist, especially on Saturdays.

Power and Light district (downtown): Corporate Vegas-like manufactured entertainment district with a bunch of clubs similar to vegas lounges. With new arena, it has made the CDB area quite a bit more lively but population still needs to double to be 24x7 lively. As corporate entertainment goes, this was done pretty well.

Crown Center (S downtown): Compressed suburban office/minimall in a psuedo urban setting. At least it gives the downtown area a completely different personality to visit, especially for families. Liberty Memorial and Union Station combined make it worth a quick visit from a touristy perspective.

Xroads District (C downtown): One of the largest arts districts with 60+ galleries , true warehouse lofts and urbane restaurants but no street activity except on First Fridays. Population still needs to double. Has huge potential once the surface lots are infilled.

Westport/W39th/Martini Corner: Neighborhood/hipper bars, ethnic restaurants and non-touristy entertainment. Would be more attractive to those who hate touristy areas. Westport (oldest part of the city) used to be the party bar area but that has now been divided with P&L downtown (fortunately, as it would get too crowded with late nite brawls).

Good thread on visiting KC on the MAX bus line...
http://forum.kcrag.com/index.php?top...1474#msg341474

[ignatius]

Originally Posted by SuburbanNation

its a waste of space that KC doesnt have at least a modern streetcar from downtown to waldo, considering it has a dedicated right of way at least half the way and appropriate density in that great long north/south corridor.

There is no longer a right of way that entire stretch as it's been developed. All the infrastructure from downtown to Plaza has been ripped out or developed over. South of Plaza to parts of Waldo does have an old track converted to a jogging path.