Chebucto/Mumford road widening

[Takeo]

I find it interesting that people are so passionate about something which does not directly affect them in any way and I find it sad to hear people insulting protestors or supporters or homeowners. Personally, I just feel kind of agnostic on this issue. On the one hand, I think this project is probably not that big a deal. It's a very small change. But I also agree that building more roads never fixes congestion... it just adds more congestion. One thing I do know is... it really is a crying shame to see all those beautiful mature maples mowed down and replaced with asphalt.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by someone123

“One person in that car, one person, one person, one person, one person.”

1 + 1 + 1 +1 + 1 + .... = ? Many thousands according to HRM traffic statistics.

This city will be much better without sloane. Heck i'd settle with Kelly if we get rid of sloane.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Takeo

But I also agree that building more roads never fixes congestion... it just adds more congestion. One thing I do know is... it really is a crying shame to see all those beautiful mature maples mowed down and replaced with asphalt.

The fallacy of roadbuilding never fixing congestion is just that... a fallacy. By that theory all roads should be totally congested. Clearly that is not the case.

Mature maples are a hazard and need to be taken out after 40-50 years or else they rot and fall down on top of people and things. Maples grow like weeds around here and are dirty, messy trees. Vastly overrated.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The fallacy of roadbuilding never fixing congestion is just that... a fallacy. By that theory all roads should be totally congested. Clearly that is not the case.

Mature maples are a hazard and need to be taken out after 40-50 years or else they rot and fall down on top of people and things. Maples grow like weeds around here and are dirty, messy trees. Vastly overrated.

You are being awfully hard on our national symbol . Personally, the more tree huggers the better! Next time; in addition to climbing the trees, I think they should chain themselves to the trees as well.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

No, she is dead wrong, as usual. This should have been done 30 years ago. And for her to be there taking pictures just is adding fuel to the fire.

You're absolutely right, it sounds just like something they would have done 30 years ago. But this isn't 30 years ago, and most progressive cities today are realizing increasing road capacity does nothing to actually solve the problem, it just shifts the problem around.

But then again I get tired of having to keep telling you this, since you never seem to get it. You're fixated on allowing more single occupant vehicles onto the roads instead of trying to convince some of them to find another way, be it public transit, carpooling or biking.

[GUB]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The fallacy of roadbuilding never fixing congestion is just that... a fallacy. By that theory all roads should be totally congested. Clearly that is not the case.

Mature maples are a hazard and need to be taken out after 40-50 years or else they rot and fall down on top of people and things. Maples grow like weeds around here and are dirty, messy trees. Vastly overrated.

I find the ignorance level on this forum astounding at times.

All maples are not created equal. The trees at the concerned location are Norway Maples. Yes Keith P, these are alien and invasive. However, many of the mature trees on our streetsides are Sugar Maples, a long-lived climax species of the Acadian Forest, reaching 300-400 years old. Let's make the proper distinctions.

For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw.
Rush, 1978

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by GUB

I find the ignorance level on this forum astounding at times.

Yes, see the previous post. Someone who believes that no roads should ever be built because we will all be moving in flying vehicles or something next year.

All maples are not created equal. The trees at the concerned location are Norway Maples. Yes Keith P, these are alien and invasive.

Exactly my point.

However, many of the mature trees on our streetsides are Sugar Maples, a long-lived climax species of the Acadian Forest, reaching 300-400 years old. Let's make the proper distinctions.

Interesting, but not germane to this discussion.

The point is simply that our road network is woefully obsolete even for 20-30 years ago. Look at the Bedford Highway. Look at North St. Look at Bayers Rd. One of the major north-south arteries in the city, Connaught Ave, is a totally residential street for gods sake -- how poorly planned is THAT?

Projects like this -- or actually, much more significant projects -- need to be done regardless of how many people we convince to move to buses. The city has grown to such an extent without road improvements that it is becoming a huge issue. If we get so bent out of shape over this I can only imagine what will happen when the 3rd harbor bridge project gets closer to reality.

[phrenic]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

No, she is dead wrong, as usual. This should have been done 30 years ago.

Well, it's a 30 year old way of thinking, that's for sure. If we had done this 30 years ago, traffic patterns and flow would likely have adjusted by now and we'd be in the same situation anyway. I'm usually out balls to the wall in support of development in Halifax, but this is little more than a BS band-aid solution to a problem that more roads will never fix.

This is a very insignificant project in the grand scheme of things, no doubt, but my problem with it is that it embodies everything that is fundamentally flawed about transportation planning in this city. The car is king, no exceptions.

I still don't see the intrinsic benefit of having this done either. So Joe Blow may save 3 minutes off of his commute and the "choke point" (full of vehicles with only one person in each of them) gets deferred to a few blocks up the road? Sorry, not good enough. HRM wants to densify the peninsula and here it is providing extra reason to live in the Burb's. I just see a waste of a good chuck of taxpayer's change for little to no benefit.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by phrenic

I still don't see the intrinsic benefit of having this done either. So Joe Blow may save 3 minutes off of his commute and the "choke point" (full of vehicles with only one person in each of them) gets deferred to a few blocks up the road? Sorry, not good enough.

That is the argument put forward by those opposed. As I understand the project it will make for a left turn lane at the intersection with Mumford and allow two lanes straight through the intersection. If you look at traffic patterns a goodly number of those cars subsequently make a right and go down Connaught. So you have two lines, one for straight into downtown, one for Connaught. Makes sense to me so the choke point argument really is fallacious.

HRM wants to densify the peninsula and here it is providing extra reason to live in the Burb's. I just see a waste of a good chuck of taxpayer's change for little to no benefit.

Don't be ridiculous, of course there is benefit. See above. People really need to get their heads straight about this project. The opponents have milked the media for so much overhyped and uninformed coverage that the stories are really very misleading.

[someone123]

Well, this discussion is just going around in circles.

Fact is it's being done and I predict that once completed it will simply quietly be accepted as a necessary and functional part of the road network, something that is absolutely essential to everybody in the city.

[Dmajackson]

I was reading up on this project and its really not as huge as its made out to be. They're only widening two small blocks (Westmont-Sherwood). And those maple trees (7 of them) are being replaced with 48 new trees. That sounds pretty good to me. This has been blowe way out of proportion.

[phrenic]

Yeah, no one here is going to convince anybody else of anything, really.

While I have little sympathy for people like those arrested on the street the other day, saying that the residents of the street should shut the fuck up and stop whining, as a member of this forum did on another board, shows me that more than just those who oppose the project have a lack of understanding about all the circumstances involved.

And I agree that this project is so insignificant that most people will just forget about it, but it still emphasizes how utterly incompetent our municipal government is when to comes to planning sustainable modes of transportation - something every city should be doing these days.

[cmanley]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

People really need to get their heads straight about this project. The opponents have milked the media for so much overhyped and uninformed coverage that the stories are really very misleading.

I think you are right about the media not performing their jobs on this one, Keith. Even between parties who oppose the project, reasons vary as to why they oppose it. As is normal for protests, many of the important, but less explosive discourse becomes hidden to viewers/readers. I was appauled by CBCs coverage of the event. The design of the proposed changes were not covered at all, nor were the symbolic significances of council's decision. It was stated that the public consultation process was free and democratic - not the case.

It would be great if media sources would inform about the true underlying issues, for and against, rather than only focus on the last ditch efforts of opposers, in what they see as in spectacle and will yeild increased reader/viewership.

[cmanley]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Interesting, but not germane to this discussion.

GUB's comments were germane to the discussion, as he corrected an important omission of yours, one that changes the outcome of your argument.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by Bedford_DJ

I was reading up on this project and its really not as huge as its made out to be. They're only widening two small blocks (Westmont-Sherwood). And those maple trees (7 of them) are being replaced with 48 new trees. That sounds pretty good to me. This has been blowe way out of proportion.

I have to agree with Bedford. Its a small project that probably will be forgotten by all sides a few months after completion. Some of the residents were paid up to $30,000 for their small loss of land; one fella $500 for no land loss even, just the inconvenience of having construction workers temporarily on his property. I'd gladly let the city shave 10 feet off my lawn for 30K!! That'd buy a nice new car, and a brand new road out front to drive it on..

[Dmajackson]

Just to prove how over-exagerrated this project has become compare it to other projects in HRM. THis is only two blocks so why aren't people going insane over the HUGE widening project happening on Hammonds Plains Road, for example? They're widening the road by many lanes and only making the area more car dependant but i don't see any people hugging the trees that are being demolished. Of course i realize one major difference is Chebucto has more houses close to the road but when you think of it the main arguement against Chebucto is more cars being used to commute and how there is no more buses. That can be applied on Hammond's Plains as well. There are no buses out there and they aren't adding any with this widening so why isn't someone crying foul over this project? I can tell you that many locals know this is neccessariy for safety and a better community.

Sorry about the rant but people really need to realize that there are other widning projects that are worse than this one in HRM.

[Takeo]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Yes, see the previous post. Someone who believes that no roads should ever be built because we will all be moving in flying vehicles or something next year.

I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth Keith.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Takeo

I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth Keith.

Yours wasn't the previous post to the one in question, so I wasn't referring to you.

I would appreciate you not being so touchy.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by cmanley

GUB's comments were germane to the discussion, as he corrected an important omission of yours, one that changes the outcome of your argument.

Not at all. I was referring to the Norway Maples that were being removed. The outcome of my argument remains the same.

Jeezus, there must be something about this topic that causes people to totally lose the ability to see straight or something...

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Bedford_DJ

Just to prove how over-exagerrated this project has become compare it to other projects in HRM. THis is only two blocks so why aren't people going insane over the HUGE widening project happening on Hammonds Plains Road, for example? They're widening the road by many lanes and only making the area more car dependant but i don't see any people hugging the trees that are being demolished. Of course i realize one major difference is Chebucto has more houses close to the road but when you think of it the main arguement against Chebucto is more cars being used to commute and how there is no more buses. That can be applied on Hammond's Plains as well. There are no buses out there and they aren't adding any with this widening so why isn't someone crying foul over this project? I can tell you that many locals know this is neccessariy for safety and a better community.

You just answered your own question. Anyone who has ever driven on that road knows how hazardous and awful it is. Again, this is a project that needed to be done around the time Kingswood went in 10+ years ago.

Sorry about the rant but people really need to realize that there are other widning projects that are worse than this one in HRM.

Worse? In what way? How can that project in Hammonds Plains be described as "worse"? It is a badly needed long overdue improvement. Maybe that's the reason nobody except a small lunatic fringe would ever oppose it.