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  #7661  
Old Posted May 1, 2012, 7:27 AM
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  #7662  
Old Posted May 1, 2012, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
That Chicago Architecture Blog picture is a clever piece of Photoshop work, but has nothing to do with what's actually proposed:

I can certainly understand many of you balking at the thought of losing the Santa Fe sign, but I'm thinking of it this way...someone already brought up the fact that the Santa Fe Railroad company as it was when this sign was erected is far and away no longer existent. So the sign is essentially an antiquated relic in a very visible place. I would think that Chicagoans would want a building at the forefront of the city's visible image (the skyline) to represent the modern and the progressive. Having the signage of a nonexistent old company just makes Chicago look stuck in the past. Having the signage of a modern tech company posted in the old-fashioned style of the former sign says to me that Chicago is a cutting-edge city that still respects its history.

I do hope that the old sign will not be tossed on the trash heap though. Let's hope it's saved and preserved somehow.
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  #7663  
Old Posted May 1, 2012, 1:05 PM
Virtual Urban Vision Virtual Urban Vision is offline
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Originally Posted by StatenIslander237 View Post
I can certainly understand many of you balking at the thought of losing the Santa Fe sign, but I'm thinking of it this way...someone already brought up the fact that the Santa Fe Railroad company as it was when this sign was erected is far and away no longer existent. So the sign is essentially an antiquated relic in a very visible place. I would think that Chicagoans would want a building at the forefront of the city's visible image (the skyline) to represent the modern and the progressive. Having the signage of a nonexistent old company just makes Chicago look stuck in the past. Having the signage of a modern tech company posted in the old-fashioned style of the former sign says to me that Chicago is a cutting-edge city that still respects its history.

I do hope that the old sign will not be tossed on the trash heap though. Let's hope it's saved and preserved somehow.
In LA we've started landmarking historic signs as historic monuments. I really wish BNSF would have just stuck with Santa Fe, I mean union pacific merged with Southern Pacific and they don't go by UPSP.
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  #7664  
Old Posted May 1, 2012, 2:22 PM
Nowhereman1280 Nowhereman1280 is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiPhi View Post
Smurfit is comparable. It would not take 200 Million + to make it as good as 353. It is also a landmark building with a killer view and tons of corporate prestige. Moreover, a thirty year old building still has the large floor plates and high ceilings necessary for a modern office. Only minor changes are needed. On the other hand, if I had mentioned, say, the West Loop Civic Opera House, the office portions of which recently sold for under nine figures I believe, then I would be comparing apples to oranges (especially in capacity). Though 353 N. clark is about 1.8 times the size of the Crain's Communication building, both were at about 80% capacity when sold. Moreover, both are considered a class A property.
It's got nothing to do with making it "as good as" 353 because A. That simply is not possible and B. the value of the building is not in the build out, but in the leases.

Once again, 353 was fully leased with tenants at new-construction rents (i.e. $35/SF/YR NNN +) while Smurfit was like 80% leased at retrofited, 30 year old, construction rents ($25/SF/YR NNN). I know it might shock you, but over ten years (typical lease term) that difference alone amounts to something in the neighborhood of $100,000,000 alone and that's not taking into account the 20% vacancy difference which would be a $500,000,000 difference over 10 years. So you have $600,000,000 in lost revenue over 10 years if you own SS instead of 353. Even after you get the present value of that money and account for the fact that you could probably lease out all that vacant space (which of course costs money as well as you'd likely have to provide a TI allowance) you are still talking hundreds of millions of dollars. You can pretty quickly see why one building would be worth $200 million more than the other.

Quote:
From Costar, the authority in matters like class of office space:
Please, CoStar is hardly an authority on anything. Their data is shoddy at best and is entered by the owners of the buildings. Do you really think the owners of Smurfit Stone would ever choose to call their building "Class B" on their own? The fact is it offers class A amenities, but its really an A-/B+ building due to it's age. Meanwhile 353 is a class A+++ building due to the fact that it is brand spanking new. Pretty much everything on there outside of sale comps (which are generally public record anyhow) is innacurate. They mess up my listings all the time an I send them the freaking brochures that spell it out line by line.

Quote:
Thus, if the location was not a matter of issue (east vs. west part of the loop), this tower should have been more valuable (especially as the market has rebounded a bit since 353 sold) than around 45% of 353 N. Clark given its prestigious status as an important piece of the skyline and amazing views.
You are greatly overestimating the value of a building's location in the skyline. It helps a bit with leasing (as do views), but when it comes to a partially vacant, aging building versus a brand new, fully leased, tower, such things are hardly relevant.

Finally you are also ignoring the fact that Smurfit Stone is actually much smaller than 353 N Clark. Smurfit is 661,000 SF and 353 is 1,173,000 SF. That alone means the sales price of SS was more like $200 million when adjusting for the size difference.

Also, just for reference (since you brought up CoStar, I logged in and got the actual numbers), 353 sold for $385,000,000 ($328/SF) in December 2010 while SS Sold for $105,000,000 ($158/SF). I know these are all things people don't think about much, but I do this for a living, the value of office buildings is almost entirely in the total consideration of the existing leases.
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  #7665  
Old Posted May 1, 2012, 2:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Virtual Urban Vision View Post
I really wish BNSF would have just stuck with Santa Fe, I mean union pacific merged with Southern Pacific and they don't go by UPSP.
Because Burlington Northern (like Union Pacific) was the surviving corporation. It was a nice nod to sentiment that they included the "SF" at all.
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  #7666  
Old Posted May 1, 2012, 3:38 PM
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NWM,

Clearly you have more knowledge on this matter as you do it for a living, and I hate dealing with these petty forum fights. I will simply say that, despite what you are saying, if you return to my post, both buildings were leased at about 80%. Plus, the building is 773,118 sq ft according to my source. Where did you find your number? Assuming mine, the real per sq. ft price is $135.81. If we assume that there is a difference of $10 per sq ft per year difference in leasing costs, then it would take nearly 20 years to recoup that difference. A lot can change in 20 years, especially the "new construction" status of a building, right. And it seems that large floor plates and high ceilings will remain in style, so both will be considered old class B buildings at this point commanding the same rent?

Anyways, this was really about east vs. west loop. So do you think that the Crain's article was wrong? that would be an interesting perspective to hear.
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  #7667  
Old Posted May 1, 2012, 4:54 PM
Nowhereman1280 Nowhereman1280 is offline
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^^^ I do think that the East Loop is not as attractive, but not because the location is inherently worse, but rather that the building stock is inherently worse.

Additionally that number just goes to show how shoddy CoStar's data is as I pulled that SF number from CoStar (since we were using it as a source on everything else). Who knows which one is actually correct. The problem is people love to mix up BOMA measurements and use RBA and USF and other measurements with one another.
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  #7668  
Old Posted May 1, 2012, 6:28 PM
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^^^
Interesting, and no hard feelings if our debate got a little contentious. I always hate when these internet scuffles occur... I think it has something to do with not talking to someone's face...

Quote:
Originally Posted by siunate2324 View Post
although this is all conceptual the 625 w. adams proposal looks pretty sweet too, wonder if there were ever any legs to that..

That proposal is by the Alter group, who are known for doing projects that are feasible. They rarely come out with proposals that are outlandish and incredibly unrealistic. As such, this building is small (less than a half million sq ft.). They hope one anchor tenant will be enough to get it going. They just got plan commission approval the other day, so we'll see if they can land a tenant.
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Last edited by ChiPhi; May 1, 2012 at 8:53 PM.
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  #7669  
Old Posted May 1, 2012, 7:17 PM
siunate2324 siunate2324 is offline
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yeah i was just curious to see what xavier wade was and if they could possibly be that tenant
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  #7670  
Old Posted May 1, 2012, 8:58 PM
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^^^ I have no idea what that is... where did you see that name referenced?
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  #7671  
Old Posted May 1, 2012, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by george View Post
4-29
1225 Old Town

What a superb photographic example of the difference between vintage and modern brick quality and warmth.

The new stuff just looks.. cold. Chicago face brick was always brought in from other regions, unlike our commons. But I haven't yet been able to find a company still making face brick like they used to. Anyone here know their bricks?
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  #7672  
Old Posted May 1, 2012, 10:25 PM
siunate2324 siunate2324 is offline
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it was on the same website where the other designs of 111 w. wacker were found it was another chicago project on the side. here: http://joshpabst.com/625-W-Adams-Xavier-Warde-School
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  #7673  
Old Posted May 1, 2012, 11:39 PM
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^^^
I'm going to guess that that isn't going to happen as the people who own the lot now want to make it offices. I have no idea when that is from and/or if it was ever a realistic proposal.

As a side note, if you click the "quote" button on the bottom right of the post to which you wish to respond, people know to whom you are referring and it helps keep the rhythm and clarity of the forum in good order.
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  #7674  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 6:15 AM
denizen467 denizen467 is offline
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Secrets of the dead...


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...699022400.html

Chicago's Spire Remains Hole in the Ground
Four Years After Construction on the Tower Stopped, Development Is Stalled in Foreclosure Proceedings; Ties to Ireland
May 1, 2012

BY MAURA WEBBER SADOVI

... Four years after construction stopped, leaving only a big foundation dug to support the planned 150-story Chicago Spire, an Irish government agency that subsequently bought the soured debt as part of the country's bank bailout still holds the loan on its books, according to people familiar with the property.

Now, Ireland's National Asset Management Agency, which took on the debt from the defunct Anglo Irish Bank Corp., is running up a big tab paying for property expenses that will be nearly $3 million by the end of this year. ...

The parcel's fate has been closely watched by investors who prize its location along the city's tony Lake Shore Drive near the meeting of the Chicago River and Lake Michigan. "It's the last great real-estate parcel on Lake Shore Drive," said Curt Bailey, president of Related Midwest, a unit of Stephen Ross's Related Cos. "We're very interested."

But the two-acre parcel has been bogged down in a messy foreclosure proceeding that began about two years ago. ...

... There have been recent rumblings that the agency may be working to reach a settlement with other lien holders that would avoid expensive litigation. Such a deal could pave the way for the agency to request a sale, according to people familiar with the property. But Mr. Kelleher's firm, Shelbourne Development, could also fight such a move. Mr. Kelleher didn't return calls for comment. ...
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  #7675  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 6:56 AM
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Wonderful.... more mediocre design, this time at one of the city's most significant locations!

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  #7676  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 12:25 PM
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^ I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but 2 days ago I saw that they were drilling caissons for that NWU Ambulatory surgical tower in Streeterville.
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  #7677  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 1:07 PM
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Fifield picked for Gold Coast apartment/Jewel project

By: Ryan Ori May 02, 2012

Quote:
Fifield Cos. has emerged as the chosen developer to build a mixed-use project in the Gold Coast that would include an apartment high-rise and a new Jewel-Osco grocery store.
http://www.chicagorealestatedaily.co...#ixzz1tiYbrrMK

Does this mean that the BKL design we saw is out? I can't remember the context of that rendering now but I'm guessing it might have been associated with magellan.
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  #7678  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 2:18 PM
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I did like that BKL design, but I'm ready for anything big to happen there.
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  #7679  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 2:27 PM
SamInTheLoop SamInTheLoop is offline
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^^ ^ That's what I immediately thought of as well - that really sucks if BKL is now out of the mix with this one.......here's to hoping Fifield opts for someone beyond the usual suspects for the design, (for one example, BKL), and if they do fall back on P/H, SCB, etc, hopefully they elevate their game.....
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  #7680  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 2:33 PM
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BKL design, for those who forgot what it looks like:
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