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  #281  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2009, 5:40 AM
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^ it should be at around $100-120-million per km.
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  #282  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2009, 5:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEeyore View Post
Other future extensions (2030) include continuing along the Fraser Highway to Langley Centre in Langley, as well as a separate branch from Surrey Central south along King George Highway as far as 64th Avenue.
That's not an option listed in the Surrey Rapid Transit Alternative Study RFP though.. there are a total of 16 options:

SC = Surrey Central, NT = Newton, WR = White Rock, GF = Guildford, FW = Fleetwood, LC = Langley City

1. BRT from SC to WR via King George
2. LRT from SC to NT, BRT from NT to WR
3. SkyTrain from SC to NT, BRT from NT to WR

4. BRT from SC to GF via 104th
5. LRT from SC to GF via 104th
6. SkyTrain from SC to GF via 104th

7. BRT from SC to LC via Fraser
8. LRT from SC to LC via Fraser
9. SkyTrain from SC to FW, BRT from FW to LC
10. LRT from SC to FW, BRT from FW to LC

11. LRT from SC to LC via GF, FW
12. SkyTrain from SC to FW via GF, BRT from FW to LC
13. LRT from SC to FW via GF, BRT from FW to LC

14. BRT from SC to LC via King George, Hwy 10
15. LRT from SC to LC via King George, Hwy 10
16. LRT from SC to NT, BRT from NT to LC

So the furthest you can get with Skytrain is Newton and Fleetwood. But notice all the SkyTrain options are followed by BRT, so I guess then can convert them to SkyTrain in the distant future...
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  #283  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2009, 5:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
^ it should be at around $100-120-million per km.
Should be much lower than that... Millennium Line is done at less than 50 millions per km, and I think they are "easily elevated sections". So including inflation, it would be at 60~65 millions per km in 2009 dollars. At grade section should be even cheaper, and my guess is around 30~45 millions per km (provided that there's an existing ROW).
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  #284  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2009, 6:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nname View Post
Should be much lower than that... Millennium Line is done at less than 50 millions per km, and I think they are "easily elevated sections". So including inflation, it would be at 60~65 millions per km in 2009 dollars. At grade section should be even cheaper, and my guess is around 30~45 millions per km (provided that there's an existing ROW).
Millenium line was $1,166,550,000, or $1,359,789,482 in 2009 dollars. This works out to about $66m/km. However, I would expect that it would be higher than this due to expropriation costs in the areas specified. I would guesstimate $1.5b-$1.6b for all 20km of these two spurs.
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  #285  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2009, 6:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nname View Post
That's not an option listed in the Surrey Rapid Transit Alternative Study RFP though.. there are a total of 16 options:
It's just a combination of #3 and #9. A realistic estimate of the cost of the surrey branches would be $80-90 million/km, of course this also varies depending on how many stations you would build. Remember, you have to factor in the cost of longer platforms.
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  #286  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2009, 4:16 PM
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With the correct Right of Way could light rail with some grade separation work?
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  #287  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2009, 4:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon View Post
With the correct Right of Way could light rail with some grade separation work?
Yes. And it was what Surrey was pursuing until this announcement... now I think no one really knows what's happening. No news in a long while. Kevin Falcon lives in Cloverdale... so it was likely that his thoughts were serving that area.
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  #288  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2009, 4:30 PM
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Are Fleetwood and Guildford higher priority destinations than Newton? What about Cloverdale? Which of these town centres is projected to have the most density and growth in this time frame?

A system like Flexity could tie together 3-4 town centres in Surrey at a reasonable cost. Or perhaps the existing rail lines could be used to operate an O-Train-like service.

Whatever is set up in Surrey should anchor some kind of valley rapid transit service.
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  #289  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2009, 5:30 PM
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Existing Rail would be Cloverdale to Scott Road via Newton. Not a bad route, all considering.

Guildford is probably more dense than Newton, but I think we'll see Newton need transit sooner. Guildford will be a huge beneficiary of the new PMB. Lots in the area will have quick access to the freeway. People in Newton have to pass the rapid transit network to get to the freeway or take the 91 and AFB.

Fleetwood is all large SFH without any appreciable town centre.

Cloverdale's newer areas near the Fraser Highway are actually quite dense SFH, more dense than Vancouver SFH, built on smaller lots.

See here for an example.

At the moment, the Guildford Fleetwood extension route has priority, ending at 168th (15-20 blocks shy of Cloverdale)
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  #290  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2009, 5:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
Are Fleetwood and Guildford higher priority destinations than Newton? What about Cloverdale? Which of these town centres is projected to have the most density and growth in this time frame?

A system like Flexity could tie together 3-4 town centres in Surrey at a reasonable cost. Or perhaps the existing rail lines could be used to operate an O-Train-like service.

Whatever is set up in Surrey should anchor some kind of valley rapid transit service.
DISTANCE
City Centre to Newton = 6.4km
City Centre to Guildford & Fleetwood = 6.9km

POPULATION (Estimate as of June 2009/Estimate 2026)
Newton = 120,714 / 169,709
Guildford = 59,542 / 65,341
Fleetwood = 59,057 / 60,411

Yeah this is pretty much a toss up. The lines are around the same size and serve a similar population base. The Newton has a large industrial base and Guildford/Fleetwood has a large commercial base. I think the whole reason why the Government chose Guildford/Fleetwood is due to immediate highway access to get cars off of the Port Mann, future expansion of the system over the Port Mann, and it's next logical destination being Cloverdale/Langley City. I am in favour of networking the City Centre, town centres and Langley City under the same ground level LRT system. It works in Toronto, and even freaking Tacoma has one, so why can't Surrey/Langley have one?
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  #291  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2009, 6:48 PM
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Exclamation The best so far . . . realsitic and comprehensive

Quote:
Originally Posted by fever View Post
I think the distances get to be too big to make extending skytrain worthwhile. It's just too long of a ride with too many stations.
It's better to differentiate services into a downtown surrey-centric LRT network for trips within north surrey, south surrey/white rock,
and north delta and a regional network for longer trips south of the fraser. It can start off as B-lines and commuter buses and
eventually switch over to rail line by line as ridership grows. It should also anticipate future connections across the fraser that may
happen decades down the road.

I think something like this would be pretty good for a ~4 million person Metro Vancouver. It might even be a bit too much. I'd be ok
with a LRT to UBC from Arbutus, for example.
Many plans for future rapid transit and communter rail systems have been submitted over the past number of months.

Some were overly fanciful, but most had great merit in one or more domains. It is
a tough choice to decide which one is the best: a combination of comprehensive coverage and realistic feasibility.

My personal opinion is that this plan, while not overly elaborate,
blends efficiency and broad-range coverage for the whole Metro Region, combined with a realisitc approach of not going overboard with fanciful
(but often wonderful) ideas that would wind up being too expensive.

It is a shame that Port Moody would lose its WCE Express station, but it's equally important to remember that that station was built over 10 years
ago, before the great impetus to expand rapid rail throughout the city. The remainder of the commuter rail system shows resourcefulness
and ingenuity.

The extension of the Canada line to North Vancouver is terrific, and as one reader pointed out, several stations in West Vancouver could be eliminated.
Nevertheless, the line serves Horsehoe Bay, and presumably, goes to Lions Bay and perhaps Squamish/Whistler: commuter-train-hungry regions.
Equally good is the comprehensive coverage of the Fraser Valley - a future "commuter belt" if ever there was.

The inclusion of Kerrisdale is important, because it represents the closest thing to a "West Side" Town Centre due to its density, and has the existing
Arbutus rail line running through it, just waiting to be put into use.

This plan also offers flexibility, in that, as Fever states, some routes could be converted to rail if and when required.

This plan isn't super-fancy, but it's very comprehensive, and offers a great 'jumping-off pont' for future expansion.

It would get my vote for its realism and comprehensiveness, plus its flexibility for future elaboration when called for.

As far as Richmond riders feeling left out: they can always increase bus links when the density increases, as it is doing now.

p.s: Here in Paris, the already-elaborate commuter rail system has just purchased a fleet of suburban trains from Bombardier, and they are SUPER.
Fast, lightweight, quiet, comfortable. (No need to imagine snarling diesel engines or delapidated old Budd Cars for Vancouver's upcoming system)!!

And for anyone who has a problem with this map, remember; it ISN'T written in stone!! Adjustments CAN be made.

Last edited by trofirhen; Oct 16, 2009 at 1:54 AM.
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  #292  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2009, 8:07 PM
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Newton has Kwantlen University - which would gain from better transit
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  #293  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2009, 12:56 AM
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I'd say Guildford would be better actually. There's much more density in that area compared to Newton which is all sprawl/rented-out suites and basements. If you ever look at the 320/501 as they run between Surrey Central and Guildford, the ridership is fairly high.
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  #294  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2009, 1:10 AM
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Port Moody losing the WCE is certainly understandable - especially with the Evergreen Line at the same location. If someone really wants to take it, they can always backtrack to Coquitlam Centre. It's not really that far.
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  #295  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2009, 3:10 AM
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There's pros and cons to either Newton or Guildford/Fleetwood.

Newton has a huge ethnic population and is slowly becoming the new Whalley with a ton of social housing and general sketchiness in the area. In that sense, if done properly, the SkyTrain could be a stimulus to the area's redevelopment, which would increase density even more than its already high level. The 321 to Surrey Central is one of Surrey's most popular routes, and I believe has service at least every 10 minutes during rush hour.

Guildford is a major commercial centre, but with a lot of development shifting back to the City Centre, Guildford has been languishing. Its development as a core emerged due to the first Port Mann in the 60's. Fleetwood also has a growing core, with a ton of new townhomes going in, which has dramatically spiked ridership on the 502 on Fraser Hwy.

Personally, I'd say to go with Newton, if it has to be one or the either. If we put SkyTrain, along with an expanded Hwy 1, at Guildford, it will again shift growth out of the City Centre. Whalley needs to remain the primary focal point of development in Surrey, otherwise it will never succeed.

Keeping King George as the terminus (with perhaps at most an extension to Green Timbers to service the new Outpatient Hospital, RCMP E-Division, and School District HQ), and building a much more extensive LRT network across the burbs makes a lot more sense to me. In this way, pedestrian traffic must transfer and funnel around the City Centre to get around, making and retaining it's place as the focal point of Surrey. Plus, then it's no longer a question of Guildford versus Newton, because we could afford both.
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  #296  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2009, 3:13 AM
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Personally speaking, I still think SkyTrain should be expanded linking one of the two regional centres, but a light rail network should complement the expansion of the SkyTrain.
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  #297  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2009, 4:08 AM
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  #298  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2009, 5:39 AM
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WCE going south from Coquitlam Central station wouldnt really work, because the junction to New Westminster is east of that station.
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  #299  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2009, 6:58 AM
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I'm thinking both lines towards fleet wood and newton are going to be needed. Maybe not tomorrow. But certainly some time in the future.

Although personally what I would do right now even before extending the expo line at all. Is to create a nice layout of BRT routes.

Routes I would like to see would be

King George Station down King George Hwy to White Rock

King George Station along Fraser Hwy to at least Cloverdale and Preferably Langley City

Langley City to Maple Ridge

(Not related to Surrey but needed in my opinion) Future evergreen line Coq to Maple Ridge BRT.

There might be other routes needed but those should be the main ones for sure.

The BRT routes themselves wouldn't necessarly have to run ever 2-3 minutes like they do for the 99-Bline But I think one ever 10 mins and 15 mins max would be good. Maybe during peak time possibly 5 mins. But not sure if that would be too frequent.
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  #300  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2009, 8:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fever View Post
I think the distances get to be too big to make extending skytrain worthwhile. It's just too long of a ride with too many stations.
It's better to differentiate services into a downtown surrey-centric LRT network for trips within north surrey, south surrey/white rock,
and north delta and a regional network for longer trips south of the fraser. It can start off as B-lines and commuter buses and
eventually switch over to rail line by line as ridership grows. It should also anticipate future connections across the fraser that may
happen decades down the road.

I think something like this would be pretty good for a ~4 million person Metro Vancouver. It might even be a bit too much. I'd be ok
with a LRT to UBC from Arbutus, for example.
I think this picture puts out an almost perfect plan
I dont think skytrain to Guildford is a smart idea cause it could really mess
up the city centre by make Whalley have to fight Guildford to be the main
commercial core of Surrey.

Although I think an lrt or rapid bus route to the fleetwood station from cloverdale would be a good add on.
Also make the lrt go down 152 to hit skytrain there so people in
guildford wouldnt have to ride all the way to central.

Also as for density in Newton Surrey doesnt plan to allow towers in that area
for a while atleast. They want to stick to little apartments and avoid office
that way.
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