Broadway Rapid Transit Corridor Discussion | Proposed

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Dave2

VCC-Clark is the obvious choice for starting the Millennium Line Extension.. or should it now be called the Evergreen Line Extension.

Come to think of it, the name "Evergreen" was the name chosen when the line was going to be LRT (my entry, "Tragic Mistake", didn't make the cut)... If the service pattern is going to be Douglas Collage to VCC Clark, with trains from Waterfront terminating at King George or Lougheed Town Centre, the name "Evergreen" should be dropped.

Millennium Line runs from Douglas Collage to VCC-Clark, and trains from Waterfront would all be "Expo Line", to either King George or Lougheed Town Centre.. Many cities have lines with the same name/number that split to serve different destinations at their extremities. The 5 in NYC, the Picadilly in London.. and the Canada Line in Vancouver.. Then only Braid and Sapparton need to be rebranded. just mho

I think you got it. The issue is being complexified here.. Your suggestion would eliminate the name "Evergreen Line," but is that a problem? Some will squawk "yes," but I do'nt think it matters one bit if Douglas College Coquitlam >> UBC is all Millenium Line.

All trains from Waterfront following current Millenium/Expo Line become Expo Line and simply for and split (as they do in many citiies, as you say. (Stockholm is another very overt example of this). Then the Braid-Sapperton portion gets renamed; sort of forming a loop-link type of line to connect New West and Lougheed Town Centre............. ?

Did I get it right? I think it's a great and schematically simplified idea.

[dleung]

While we're at it, it'll be nice to lose the "canada line" name... it makes visitors think the nation has only one rapid-transit line.

[deasine]

^Too bad it seems like that name will stay.

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I think you got it. The issue is being complexified here.. Your suggestion would eliminate the name "Evergreen Line," but is that a problem? Some will squawk "yes," but I do'nt think it matters one bit if Douglas College Coquitlam >> UBC is all Millenium Line.

All trains from Waterfront following current Millenium/Expo Line become Expo Line and simply for and split (as they do in many citiies, as you say. (Stockholm is another very overt example of this). Then the Braid-Sapperton portion gets renamed; sort of forming a loop-link type of line to connect New West and Lougheed Town Centre............. ?

Did I get it right? I think it's a great and schematically simplified idea.

From what we've discussed earlier, Braid and Sapperton will be part of a Waterfront-Lougheed service, rather than a shuttle train operation. Hence... I think it should be

Waterfront <-> King George = Expo Line
Waterfront <-> Lougheed via Braid/Sapperton = Expo Line

and

VCC-Clark <-> Douglas College = Millennium Line

(or Evergreen Line)

But I prefer Millennium Line for the sake so that we don't have to rebrand so many stations.

[andasen]

I believe if memory serves me correct that the line which is going to travel from Douglas to VCC-Clark (and beyond) is actually going to be named something else altogether. The componant pieces will maintain their names in technical situations but they will rebrand the entire service to prevent confusion. I will see if I can dig up more information on this. It seems to me that it was in the RFP for the evergreen line. I'll report back.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by deasine

^Too bad it seems like that name will stay.

The weird thing is that the Feds have committed to nearly the same amount of money for the Evergreen Line ($417 million), or 30% the cost, compared to 25% of the cost of the Canada Line. Meanwhile the $2.6 bilion Spadina extension in Toronto - with a projected ridership similar to the Evergreen line - got $700 million from the Feds, or 27%. The Feds will also be expected to contribute 1/3 of the $17.5 billion cost of Transit City (6 billion). So why did the Canada Line get the retarded name?

[Meraki]

Originally Posted by dleung

The weird thing is that the Feds have committed to nearly the same amount of money for the Evergreen Line ($417 million), or 30% the cost, compared to 25% of the cost of the Canada Line. Meanwhile the $2.6 bilion Spadina extension in Toronto - with a projected ridership similar to the Evergreen line - got $700 million from the Feds, or 27%. The Feds will also be expected to contribute 1/3 of the $17.5 billion cost of Transit City (6 billion). So why did the Canada Line get the retarded name?

One possible explanation is that the Canada Line never had a real confirmed name during planning/construction. RAV Line was always just meant to be a temporary identification for the project. This left the federal government open to demand it be called (for no logical reason) the Canada Line rather than Olympic Line to fit in with the naming of the other two.

The Evergreen Line has had that name in the planning phases and they probably thought it wasn't worth the effort to impose a name change when the line already has name recognition as Evergreen. Besides, what would the Feds suggest it be named? The only thing other than Canada would be Harper, and that certainly wouldn't go over well.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by dleung

While we're at it, it'll be nice to lose the "canada line" name... it makes visitors think the nation has only one rapid-transit line.

I agree, it's hokey. Renaming the system by colour reference or maybe numbering or lettering the line names would be better. European cities and Asian cities often do that.

Originally Posted by andasen

I believe if memory serves me correct that the line which is going to travel from Douglas to VCC-Clark (and beyond) is actually going to be named something else altogether. The componant pieces will maintain their names in technical situations but they will rebrand the entire service to prevent confusion. I will see if I can dig up more information on this. It seems to me that it was in the RFP for the evergreen line. I'll report back.

Good stuff. Hope it works out better.

Originally Posted by dleung

The weird thing is that the Feds have committed to nearly the same amount of money for the Evergreen Line ($417 million), or 30% the cost, compared to 25% of the cost of the Canada Line. Meanwhile the $2.6 bilion Spadina extension in Toronto - with a projected ridership similar to the Evergreen line - got $700 million from the Feds, or 27%. The Feds will also be expected to contribute 1/3 of the $17.5 billion cost of Transit City (6 billion). So why did the Canada Line get the retarded name?

Regarding the name Canada Line, maybe this was to move away from local concepts and event names like Expo 86, and the year 2000, and choose something more "universal." So maybe that's partly why, complemented by the YVR terminus, as a sort of "you're in Canada now; Welcome" thing. Not sure if the name was officially related to federal $$ contribution or not.

Regarding the $$ the feds are heaping into into Toronto transit infrastructure, especially Transit City ........ That's where the majority of the people are, where the majority of the votes are, and the majority of Paliamentary seats there are to be won. Politicians know which side their bread is buttered on.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I agree, it's hokey. Renaming the system by colour reference or maybe numbering or lettering the line names would be better. European cities and Asian cities often do that.

• London uses names.
• Tokyo uses names.
• Osaka uses names.
• Kuala Lumpur doesn't.
• Beijing appears to use numbers.
• Shanghai appears to use numbers.
• Moscow seems to use both
• St. Petersburg seems to use both
• Rome uses letters

It seems to me that cities that started with only planning one line at a time and slowly building out the network have named lines, whereas cities that had comprehensive plans and quickly built out a system numbered the lines.

The Millennium Line, when it was originally being built was a Phase I and Phase II system. Phase I was Lougheed to Commercial. Phase II was Commercial to Granville and Lougheed to Coquitlam.

VCC Station was an addition to (imho) encourage the line to be continued. VCC gives the line the feeling that it is incomplete as it's not a natural terminus.

When the current political party came into power, they axed phase II.

Therefore, the EG Line and the Central Broadway line were originally just the Millennium Line.

The Canada line couldn't be called the Olympic Line because of sensitivities at the time. The RAV line wasn't included in the Olympics cost and so it would have been fodder for Olympic opposition.

[DKaz]

Canada Line is down between Broadway-City Hall and Waterfront. A Millennium Line extension would've at least allowed passengers to scoot over to the Expo Line since the bus bridge is not holding up apparently.

[nname]

And we just had an Expo broke down last week during morning peak. Having the Millennium Line connect to Canada Line would at least provide enough redundancy for both situations...

[racc]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

It seems to me that cities that started with only planning one line at a time and slowly building out the network have named lines, whereas cities that had comprehensive plans and quickly built out a system numbered the lines.

The Millennium Line, when it was originally being built was a Phase I and Phase II system. Phase I was Lougheed to Commercial. Phase II was Commercial to Granville and Lougheed to Coquitlam.

VCC Station was an addition to (imho) encourage the line to be continued. VCC gives the line the feeling that it is incomplete as it's not a natural terminus.

When the current political party came into power, they axed phase II.

Therefore, the EG Line and the Central Broadway line were originally just the Millennium Line.

Or the Premier at the time wanted it to end at Glen and Clark Drives

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by racc

Or the Premier at the time wanted it to end at Glen and Clark Drives

That's an urban legend, isn't it? Probably something taken out of context. Funny, though.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

That's an urban legend, isn't it? Probably something taken out of context. Funny, though.

I heard years ago that VCC-Clark was almost named "Glen Clark Station" because (wink*wink*nudge*nudge) the station was between Glen St and Clark Dr. Fortunately Premier Clark was tossed out before the station was finished, so VCC Station (for nearby Vancouver Community College) was used instead.

It doesn't help that there's another VCC Station on the C-Line, although most of the announcements call it Vancouver City Centre instead of the short form.

[nname]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I heard years ago that VCC-Clark was almost named "Glen Clark Station" because (wink*wink*nudge*nudge) the station was between Glen St and Clark Dr. Fortunately Premier Clark was tossed out before the station was finished, so VCC Station (for nearby Vancouver Community College) was used instead.

It doesn't help that there's another VCC Station on the C-Line, although most of the announcements call it Vancouver City Centre instead of the short form.

The official abbreviation for Vancouver City Centre station is actually VS, but probably no one would know what you're talking about if you call it that way

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by andasen

I believe if memory serves me correct that the line which is going to travel from Douglas to VCC-Clark (and beyond) is actually going to be named something else altogether. The componant pieces will maintain their names in technical situations but they will rebrand the entire service to prevent confusion. I will see if I can dig up more information on this. It seems to me that it was in the RFP for the evergreen line. I'll report back.

I recall seeing a presentation in 2009 showing how Translink was planning for future Skytrain upgrades and modelling new Skytrain routes including the extension westwards from VCC-Clark.

One idea was that the new Evergreen Line would become a separate Skytrain route from Douglas through Lougheed to VCC-Clark (and then onwards to UBC).

Expo would continue as its own separate route from Waterfront to King George.

Millennium would interline with Expo (as it does today), but only run between Waterfront and Lougheed Station. This would provide the necessary service to the stations between Columbia and Lougheed, but also provide extra (relatively empty) inbound trains starting at Columbia for the AM rush.

Translink was leaning towards this form of service because their models showed it needed the least number of new Skytrain cars (which were received in time for the Olympics) and they wouldn't need to expand the fleet again until 2026.

[officedweller]

Since the current naming system using a "route" to name a "line" - I can see any route starting at Douglas College and heading westwards to be the "Evergreen Line".

I can also see the "Millennium Line" truncated at Lougheed Town Centre compared to its present route.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by nname

The official abbreviation for Vancouver City Centre station is actually VS, but probably no one would know what you're talking about if you call it that way

It doesn't help that there was already a "Vancouver Centre" on that corner before the C-Line station was built - the ScotiaBank office tower and the Vancouver Centre Mall that connects Vancouver City Centre Station to The Bay.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

That's an urban legend, isn't it? Probably something taken out of context. Funny, though.

Well the Evergreen line under Falcon's leadership always had a Falcon station which was not located in the most ideal spot. The moment he switched positions in government the station disappeared from the plans.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

• London uses names.
• Tokyo uses names.
• Osaka uses names.
• Kuala Lumpur doesn't.
• Beijing appears to use numbers.
• Shanghai appears to use numbers.
• Moscow seems to use both
• St. Petersburg seems to use both
• Rome uses letters

It seems to me that cities that started with only planning one line at a time and slowly building out the network have named lines, whereas cities that had comprehensive plans and quickly built out a system numbered the lines.

The Millennium Line, when it was originally being built was a Phase I and Phase II system. Phase I was Lougheed to Commercial. Phase II was Commercial to Granville and Lougheed to Coquitlam.

VCC Station was an addition to (imho) encourage the line to be continued. VCC gives the line the feeling that it is incomplete as it's not a natural terminus.

When the current political party came into power, they axed phase II.

Therefore, the EG Line and the Central Broadway line were originally just the Millennium Line.

The Canada line couldn't be called the Olympic Line because of sensitivities at the time. The RAV line wasn't included in the Olympics cost and so it would have been fodder for Olympic opposition.

Prague uses letters.
Sao Paulo uses color names.
Rio De Janeiro uses numbers.
Mexico City uses letters and numbers....for station names they use pictures, I kid you not.
Guadalajara uses numbers...

[Dave2]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I recall seeing a presentation in 2009 showing how Translink was planning for future Skytrain upgrades and modelling new Skytrain routes including the extension westwards from VCC-Clark.

One idea was that the new Evergreen Line would become a separate Skytrain route from Douglas through Lougheed to VCC-Clark (and then onwards to UBC).

Expo would continue as its own separate route from Waterfront to King George.

Millennium would interline with Expo (as it does today), but only run between Waterfront and Lougheed Station. This would provide the necessary service to the stations between Columbia and Lougheed, but also provide extra (relatively empty) inbound trains starting at Columbia for the AM rush.

Translink was leaning towards this form of service because their models showed it needed the least number of new Skytrain cars (which were received in time for the Olympics) and they wouldn't need to expand the fleet again until 2026.

Originally Posted by officedweller

Since the current naming system using a "route" to name a "line" - I can see any route starting at Douglas College and heading westwards to be the "Evergreen Line".

I can also see the "Millennium Line" truncated at Lougheed Town Centre compared to its present route.

That means new signage for 10 stations. Maybe they can save $$$ by making yellow the colour of the Coquitlam-VCC Evergreen line... The Canada line isn't red, so why make the Evergreen green? (sarcasm, in case that's not obvious)... Three lines, two of them shades of blue..