The Stadium Question

[waterloowarrior]

What should we do with our stadiums? There are a lot of different plans circulating around these days. I'm interested to see what everyone thinks is the best option.

The Lansdowne live option could include soccer if Melnyk was willing, but from what I've read in the papers it seems that the other group is more flexible.

[Davis137]

Just give me a football stadium! I don't care where it is anymore, I'll take the time, and make the effort to get to it (especially if I can watch my Ticats play here!). I say either redevelop Lansdowne and put the much-hated parking below grade, with a nice little transit terminal out front, OR build it at Lebreton/Bayview, and integrate it with the upcoming transit systems...

[jcollins]

I'm a little torn. I like the Landsdowne Live proposal a lot, but the thought of having it near Bayview or elsewhere along the transit way is very appealing.

[lrt's friend]

We need both groups on board. We need compromise. We need the stadium in a central location, ideally near rapid transit, but Lansdowne has a lot of history with sports so that is OK as well. Let's not turn Lansdowne into a Glebe focused park, which it never was.

I am getting very annoyed with the city and the engineers that are looking for reasons to shutdown Frank Clair Stadium in its entirety. It seems to me, if we follow the same standards being used at Lansdowne, most buildings in this city would not meet current building code.

ABOVE ALL, I WANT TO SEE ACTION that gets the job done as soon as possible, not in 10 years or 20 years. A city this size should have a stadium. I do not want to see another situation like light rail, where an affordable light rail plan has been replaced with something that cannot be built for years and who knows whether we will ever to be able to afford it.

[Radster]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We need both groups on board. We need compromise.

What the hell is Melnyk's problem? Why can't he compromise and join up with Lansdowne Live? Is he so blind that he still doesn't get how big of a mistake it was to put Scotiabank Place in Kanata? I used to like the guy, but now, every time news comes out, I am starting to despise him. Because its bloody obvious that he cares more about money (ie. revenues from everything in and around his complex in Kanata), than about what the majority of Ottawa's population would prefer.

[phil235]

I think that if there is any chance of Ottawa getting a stadium, council has to work with the proposals it has. Look at how long cities like Halifax and Quebec have been trying to build stadiums. If we don't work with the proponents of the plans, we will end up in the same situation.

Council also has to consider the interests of the city as a whole. While Lansdowne is not perfect, its central location is clearly a better option than a drive-only stadium in Kanata. It is also a historical gathering place for sporting events, so its use is long-established. In addition, the existing facilities including the 10,000 seat arena and 100,000 plus square feet are an important part of the equation. They are important civic assets that would be preserved in the Lansdowne proposal. The costs of rebuilding elsewhere would be high, and there is not likely to be any appetite on council for more big projects of that nature. It is pretty clear that in terms of location, and value for money, Lansdowne Live is a very good opportunity. I really hope that the City makes that decision and gets down to setting stringent conditions to ensure that the development responds to as many of the diverse interests at play as possible.

[ac888yow]

If those involved want Melnyk to join up with them they'll need to sweeten his part of the deal. If he just joins as things currently stand he definitely gets the short end of the stick (vs. him going it alone in K-town).

Melnyk isn't an idiot and he knows this. Of course he's about the money ... why shouldn't he be? Are Greenberg/Hunt/others not in it for the money too? Give your head a shake if you think not.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

If those involved want Melnyk to join up with them they'll need to sweeten his part of the deal. If he just joins as things currently stand he definitely gets the short end of the stick (vs. him going it alone in K-town).

I think the city is getting the short end of the stick (with the Kanata plan). Many other cities are seeing the owner pay for 50% or more of the stadium costs, while Melnyk wants to pay around 10%. Toronto's BMO Field cost $65 million, why do we need one almost double the cost? Melnyk has acres and acres of his own land but wants the city to give valuable land for free. IIRC he also wants 50% of gate revenue.

[ac888yow]

You throw around a lot of figures but cite no sources. My understanding of the funding Melnyk has requested is greatly different than what you've stated.

Regardless, my hope is that somehow all parties can come together and build this thing in a central location. No more burbiums.

However, people shouldn't expect Melnyk to 'tag along' with the Lansdowne Live folks without getting a bigger piece of the pie. I wouldn't do it either.

As it stands he ponies up the 50mil franchise fee (assuming MLS) and gets a stadium to play in (although one that he must pay rent to use). He also gets some percentage of the gate. Meanwhile, Greenberg/Hunt/et al get all of that for their venture, PLUS they get to develop the commercial/residential real-estate component of the plan.

I LOL at that deal if I'm Melnyk.

[waterloowarrior]

OK here's some sources
Lots of other MLS stadiums with more private sector funding... BMO Field is $69 million there, but I've seen $65 in other places. The stadiums listed in that report have much more private funding, with a few being financed 100% by the private sector.

funding for the stadium (NB: no indication that feds/province will fund this yet)

• Costs and Funding: Cost estimates provided by SS&E are at a conceptual design level and based on a cost analysis of other similar quality stadiums developed in North America over the last 5 years. The stadium and field complex will cost $100 million to develop, plus the value of the land ($10 million). SS&E are proposing this amount would be financed as follows:

- Federal funding $36.67 million (1/3);
- Provincial funding $36.67 million (1/3);
- City funding $26.7 million ($16.7 million cash plus City land with an estimated value of $10 million); and
- An SS&E cash contribution of $10 million.

that's also where I got that they want to split revenues (50% was what I remember from the council presentation)

http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa...S-CSS-0021.htm




I don't like the Lansdowne Live 'deal' either... we are just giving the site to those developers. The site should have a plan (design comp?), divide into a few blocks, and do an RFP for each block (maybe one big RFP?). It works well in Europe, and Toronto also is having success. Don't have dumb rules like the NCC/Lebreton, that just kills innovation. Definitely don't turn in into a giant park. Maybe use the funds to pay for a new stadium (whereever it suits the city). Put whatever team in the Lynx stadium until the new stadium is built.

[lrt's friend]

From listening to councillors on CFRA this afternoon, it is sounding more and more like dynamite for Frank Clair Stadium (kaboom) and a decision will actually be made on April 22nd. On the latter, I don't believe it.

The rationale is that Lansdowne cannot handle the traffic on an ongoing basis. So our future is looking more and more like more Kanata traffic jams.

I guess nobody listens to the public's ongoing discontent with the location of Scotiabank Place. Perhaps, Melynk will ante up for a new Central library out there as well.

Obviously, this will all spur more and more development out there and more and more traffic and with that, the less liklihood that I will ever want to go there. Heck, it has been 3 years since the last time I went to Scotiabank Place and when you spend almost as much time in miserable traffic as the event itself, why bother?

[m0nkyman]

None of the proposals on the table make me real happy as a taxpayer, citizen, and fan of live music. I understand the appeal of sports, and agree we need an appropriate venue for field sports. What I have yet to see is a reason for taxpayers to fund a private developers dream.

Call me when a wannabe sports franchisee puts a plan on the table that puts revenue into the city coffers, and isn't standing there with their begging cap out.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The rationale is that Lansdowne cannot handle the traffic on an ongoing basis.

This is soooo bogus. We have totally destroyed this argument I don't know how many times on this forum.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by m0nkyman

None of the proposals on the table make me real happy as a taxpayer, citizen, and fan of live music. I understand the appeal of sports, and agree we need an appropriate venue for field sports. What I have yet to see is a reason for taxpayers to fund a private developers dream.

Call me when a wannabe sports franchisee puts a plan on the table that puts revenue into the city coffers, and isn't standing there with their begging cap out.

What of the cost to the city of the other facilities currently at Lansdowne? The Civic Centre is quite a good mid-sized music venue in addition to being a hockey arena. And there is no replacement facility to handle the trade shows and events that take place at Lansdowne. This city is on the hook for a considerable investment just to maintain or replace the facilities that it currently has. That should be the point of comparison here.

[ac888yow]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

I don't like the Lansdowne Live 'deal' either... we are just giving the site to those developers. The site should have a plan (design comp?), divide into a few blocks, and do an RFP for each block (maybe one big RFP?). It works well in Europe, and Toronto also is having success. Don't have dumb rules like the NCC/Lebreton, that just kills innovation.

Notwithstanding the incompetence of our city leaders and my complete distrust in their ability to execute your suggestion, a big problem with this suggestion is that we have a conditional CFL franchise that has been awarded to an ownership group that is working with a closing window. Who's to say the CFL won't withdraw, or that the ownership won't just give up and tell the city to piss off because it can't get its sh!t together?

I think the best solution is to work with this current group at making the proposal as good as possible ... rapidly. I've heard them state numerous times that the plan is flexible. Identify the deficiencies, make the necessary improvements, sweeten the pot to try and get Melnyk on board, and get the shovels going on this thing.

[O-Town Hockey]

All this bullshit smells of pure Glebite NIMBYism. They are a powerful bunch of old cranks.

[Davis137]

LOL @ Glebite NIMBYism...I like that

The ENTIRE situation is nothing more than an elaborate GONG SHOW

[Radster]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Notwithstanding the incompetence of our city leaders and my complete distrust in their ability to execute your suggestion, a big problem with this suggestion is that we have a conditional CFL franchise that has been awarded to an ownership group that is working with a closing window. Who's to say the CFL won't withdraw, or that the ownership won't just give up and tell the city to piss off because it can't get its sh!t together?

I think the best solution is to work with this current group at making the proposal as good as possible ... rapidly. I've heard them state numerous times that the plan is flexible. Identify the deficiencies, make the necessary improvements, sweeten the pot to try and get Melnyk on board, and get the shovels going on this thing.

While I agree with you, I think an even better (and more realistic) solution would be for the Lansdowne peeps to forget about Melnyk, contact USL to see if they can get a USL franchise (which IMO Ottawa is better suited for than MLS), update their proposal to include a USL team and go from there. I already posted the pros of having a USL franchise on here in another thread, I even contacted the Lansdowne Live peeps with the suggestion. Professional soccer doesn't have to be MLS. And a USL team will be a fraction of the cost of an MLS team (while still being able to compete for the Canadian Championship and in the CONCACAF Champions league - see Montreal Impact). I am 100% sure that people in Ottawa would rather support a USL team downtown, than an MLS team in Kanata.

[ac888yow]

Originally Posted by Radster

I think an even better (and more realistic) solution would be for the Lansdowne peeps to forget about Melnyk

Perhaps, but what if Melnyk doesn't 'give up' and continues to push for an MLS franchise and Kanata stadium? What does the city do, tell him to go away? MLS is expanding again in a few years, and somehow I doubt Melnyk will be a one-shot wonder on this. It's best to get him on board right now.

I am 100% sure that people in Ottawa would rather support a USL team downtown, than an MLS team in Kanata.

Don't be so sure about this. This board /= everyone in Ottawa.

[m0nkyman]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Perhaps, but what if Melnyk doesn't 'give up' and continues to push for an MLS franchise and Kanata stadium? What does the city do, tell him to go away?

Actually, yes. If he's asking for money or land for free, that's exactly what the city should do.