Denver Development Thread (4)

[seventwenty]

Originally Posted by Pizzuti

The same could be said in reverse: why go to a subrban mall if you could just get those things downtown?

Downtown or its surrounding neighborhoods is where many people happen to live, so that's why I'm not going to just go to the suburbs to get it. Nobody's gonna drive all the way to Flatiron Crossing to visit Nordstroms when they could easily just head down to the Downtown Nordstroms a few blocks away.

The great thing about a successful urban area is that it essentially contains the whole universe. A healthy city has multiple layers. It has things that would only be found in the dense center - tall office buildings, transit hubs, stadiums, museums and art galleries, residential towers, etc. That's the top layer, it's why we love Downtown so much in particular, and its great.

But downtown also has a Taco Bell and a movie theater, even though you could find those virtually anywhere you have people - it's one of the lowest layers.

I think the drive behind the new philosophy behind urbanism is to say, rather than having designated "zones," your office buildings in a neighborhood over here, your apartment buildings in a separate nighborhood over here, your retail in a shopping mall over here... rather than having those zones - which is the way we did it in the 1970s - we mix it up. We've found that having everything in one neighborhood decreases the need to travel long distances, so it removes congestion, helps neighborhoods avoid boom and bust cycles, and makes a better urban area and higher quality of life. There should be some retail, some office, some residential. So if there is a Target every 40 blocks in the Metro area and there's a big hole where one SHOULD be Downtown, then by god, lets have a Target there.

The whole metro area is covered with general department stores where you can get all kinds of affordable stuff. There's no reason Downtown Denver should be a huge hole in the metro area when it comes to mainstream retail to meet mainstream needs.

Could it possibly hurt?

No real disagreement, I should have made my point clearer. Downtown's residents are probably more affluent probably want more upscale retail.

[Cos_Denver]

it's getting a new height. They are adding additional crane segements.. check it out.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Pizzuti

The same could be said in reverse: why go to a subrban mall if you could just get those things downtown?

Downtown or its surrounding neighborhoods is where many people happen to live, so that's why I'm not going to just go to the suburbs to get it. Nobody's gonna drive all the way to Flatiron Crossing to visit Nordstroms when they could easily just head down to the Downtown Nordstroms a few blocks away.

Or you could go to Cherry Creek just a few blocks away. Cherry Creek is a huge factor in the lack of any department store, or plans for a department store DT. That said, there are a few department stores that could be DT given demand and a lack service elsewhere. Dillard's, JC Penny, Kohl's, Target, even Wal-Mart come to mind.

What I would like to see is a Target come DT in the near future and to have a couple of department stores close to each other, a Dillard's and a Bloomingdale's would be great, near Union Station to anchor the lower portion of the 16th St Mall shopping axis.

[Pizzuti]

I think one of the biggest issues is that a department store (especially one moving into really expensive real estate Downtown) is a huge initial investment, followed by a fairly large running investment, when compared to something small like Abercrombie and Fitch. That means it has to generate sales almost immediately, to stay in business and be worth it - so you have bias towards building in a really "safe" place (like a brand new suburban mall) where you are familiar with the development model and know it's going to be profitable at least for the first 10 years.

I think what it comes down to is the people making the decisions about where to locate a department store are really nervous about locating the store in an urban area with no parking. And they know that we and the city are not going to tolerate huge surface parking lots around the store.

We're all advocating transit and saying parking lots are not needed, but I can imagine that if you're putting a lot of money on the line, you'd be nervous if your financial survival depends on people being willing to bus or light rail in and leave by the same route with shopping bags in hand. People tend to be relatively conservative about these kinds of huge investments.

They'd probably want to locate parking below the store, because they're too nervous to forgo parking altogether. That drives construction costs up. If a deparment store moved to the Pavilions (I'm not sure how many of its large spaces are empty) that solves a parking problem right there, and being in an urban mall is a template those stores are familiar with, so it takes out some of the psychological obstacles to moving downtown.

Otherwise, we have to really make a good case to those department stores that significant number of middle and upper-middle income people are willing to use transit to shop - something that is yet unproven.

I'm curious what Downtown areas do people think could best support, and make use of, a department store? Would you put a small cluster in Arapahoe Square, to fill in those empty parking lots, or would you tap into the successful energy of Central Downtown or LoDo?

[Chucolo]

Construction (or should I say destruction) crews are setting up fences and are beginning the removal of everything that made Writers Square unique. Welcome to the concrete jungle.

Didn't take very long, did it?

Sigh....

[Okayyou]

I saw the crews emptying two planters today, the two most inner ones off 15th and Larimer. Walking back from lunch I noticed how many people were enjoying the benches and planters off 16th. Almost everyone was occupied. I can't believe they are getting rid of them.

[Paulopolis]

I saw them working on Writer Square too. It really pissed me off.

[enjo13]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Or you could go to Cherry Creek just a few blocks away. Cherry Creek is a huge factor in the lack of any department store, or plans for a department store DT. That said, there are a few department stores that could be DT given demand and a lack service elsewhere. Dillard's, JC Penny, Kohl's, Target, even Wal-Mart come to mind.

It's interesting, I've had the chance to talk to a few folks involved in these stores (my job seems to intersect with these folks)... Cherry Creek never seems to come up when talking to them. When I've brought it up they usually point out that they have stores in much closer proximity in other cities (San Diego has two full blown malls within a mile of each other, Dallas has a run of malls with the exact same retailers within close proximity to each other, they have lots of examples).

Lack of suitable space Downtown consistently comes up in conjunction with the huge premium they pay for Downtown space. There is a definite frustration with a lot of the building owners Downtown who are perfectly content to let buildings set empty, rather than lower their rents to something resembling sanity.

That said, there is a lot of enthusiasm for retail Downtown, particularly given the success of the convention center. It turns out tourists are the absolute best customers for a lot of retailers, and Downtown Denver does very well in that department

[Top Of The Park]

Makovsky has the big parcel, the influence and the location. Putting a two story whatever department store wouldn't interfere with his air rights, but enhance them. He must have built up some points with the city and downtown denver inc for fixing up the fontius building and his location near the convention center is ripe prime....

[Eeyore]

Cant you add a major retail store to the 16th street mall?

[Octavian]

New RMRA slides, these showing the cost and potential phasing of HSR in colorado:

http://www.rockymountainrail.org/doc...esentation.pdf

[Top Of The Park]

Originally Posted by Eeyore

Cant you add a major retail store to the 16th street mall?

...the availability of a parcel big enough on 16th, the desire of a company to build...etc

[Okayyou]

More bad news... The project at 20th and Ogden has been canceled.

http://www.lifeoncaphill.com/index.p...966&Itemid=118

[FrancoRey]

Originally Posted by Octavian

New RMRA slides, these showing the cost and potential phasing of HSR in colorado:

http://www.rockymountainrail.org/doc...esentation.pdf

Let it be so...

twostorks.com


Only 3 billion dollars for phase 1 For DIA-Denver-CoS? It's the I-70 train that makes me cringe in horror (9 billion+).

[rds70]

Trammell Crow Residential's 20th and Ogden apartment project is dead:

http://www.lifeoncaphill.com/index.p...966&Itemid=118

As is the project proposed near East High across Colfax from the Tattered Cover:

http://www.lifeoncaphill.com/index.p...967&Itemid=118


On the positive side, two projects are proposed near the intersection of 1st and Steele in Cherry Creek. Both are proposed to be about 14 stories in height:

http://washingtonparkprofile.com/ind...=481&Itemid=57

One of them is the Steele Creek project:

[Octavian]

Originally Posted by FrancoRey

Let it be so...

twostorks.com


Only 3 billion dollars for phase 1 For DIA-Denver-CoS? It's the I-70 train that makes me cringe in horror (9 billion+).

There are 2 alignments they are looking at, a 7% alternative that follows I-70 and a 4% alternative that does not. 9 billion is the estimated price tag for a system that hugs I-70, but in future presentations, the consultants will break down the two individual alignments into shorter segments and play mix-and-match. The estimated cost may fall by the time the study is complete the price.

[Eeyore]

Originally Posted by FrancoRey

Let it be so...

twostorks.com


Only 3 billion dollars for phase 1 For DIA-Denver-CoS? It's the I-70 train that makes me cringe in horror (9 billion+).

You mean it will only go to Colorado Springs? Thats lame....

[Octavian]

Originally Posted by Eeyore

You mean it will only go to Colorado Springs? Thats lame....

No, that's not right. Here are the links to the recent presentations:

http://www.rockymountainrail.org/doc...esentation.pdf

http://www.rockymountainrail.org/documents/RMRA_AltEvalWkshp_04.24.09_AM_Finalad.pdf

http://www.rockymountainrail.org/doc...9_PM_Final.pdf

[Eeyore]

ok....

Question? Do you think it will hurt the smaller airports in Colorado and make Colorado a one airport state? I would not be for that....

[Octavian]

Originally Posted by Eeyore

ok....

Question? Do you think it will hurt the smaller airports in Colorado and make Colorado a one airport state? I would not be for that....

Interesting question. The train will have stops at DIA and Eagle Airport, and I know Colorado Springs would like a stop at the Colorado Springs airport. Does a train help or hurt those airports? It makes them more accessible, but also allows their communities easy access to DIA.

You also need to consider whether a train will bring more people on net to communities. Might your community lose air travelers but gain visitors overall? And what do trains do to airline fares? Could you see "the Southwest effect" in markets with rail competition?