Calgary C-Train vs. Vancouver SkyTrain

[mr.x]

Over at the Vancouver forum, the members are creating an organization in hopes of countering a NIMBY and pro-LRT organization's antics to derail an extension of our regional SkyTrain system across the City of Vancouver to the University of British Columbia. Our organization does support LRT in the region, but we simply do not think it's the right mode for this vital, dense, regional corridor.

I'm bringing this discussion to Calgarians and Edmontonians solely to see what you guys think of the advantages and disadvantages between the (mainly) ground-level LRT mode and the automated and completely grade-separated SkyTrain mode in regards to (1) speed, (2) frequency, (3) travel times, and (4) convenience. Also, how important are these 4 factors to you in ditching the car and riding on public transit?

What is being proposed for the Broadway corridor:
GROUND-LEVEL LRT (11-kms)
- right-of-way to be built down the middle of a busy 6-lane cross-city artery road called Broadway Street
- driver system
- approx. 16-stations
- travel time estimated at 35-45-minutes
- lots of intersections, traffic lights, left turn bays every 500-metres
- note: Broadway corridor currently serves 100,000 bus riders every single day over a 11-km stretch

SKYTRAIN (completely underground, 12-kms)
- completely underground on Broadway Street
- completely grade separated with automation/no drivers
- approx. 9-10 stations
- travel time estimated at 15-minutes
- estimated ridership: 200,000/day
- note: Broadway corridor currently serves 100,000 bus riders every single day over a 11-km stretch

BROADWAY STREET



We think it's important that this line be part of our regional SkyTrain rapid transit backbone rather than the "community-friendly line" the pro-LRT supporters would like it to be. It's a very important, dense, and busy corridor...the second largest employment centre in the region outside of Downtown Vancouver.


We would like to hear some of your thoughts, especially from individuals who have been on the C-Train, Edmonton LRT, and SkyTrain. In other words, we would like some testimonials. We do not mean to make this a city vs. city discussion.

[wild wild west]

My 2 cents is that LRT need not be grade-level. It can and indeed should be grade-separated in high-density corridors.

[Beltliner]

^^^ Outside of Calgary's downtown core, grade separation is something of a red herring, because the C-Train system runs on its own right of way through most of the city. Once you do get downtown, street-side running does create congestion and delays, which is why the city is actually getting serious about planning and building metro segments through the downtown core. That said, the only functional differences between the northwest leg of the C-Train from University to Crowfoot and Toronto's Spadina Subway from St Clair West to Yorkdale, as a case in point, are that Toronto's trains are longer than ours and that they operate from a third rail.

While there are significant operational differences between the SkyTrain and the C-Train, either mode would be appropriate for an extension to UBC. The sense I'm getting from you, though, is that what's being advocated by the no-SkyTrain squad is more of a Spadina Car, which while nice to have as a local circulator is probably not robust enough to handle the passenger throughput one would anticipate between downtown Vancouver and UBC.

[ue]

what about edmonton lrt ??

[Beltliner]

^^^ Downtown Edmonton to the U of A is a pretty good example of a light metro implementation of LRT, with the rest of the system operating almost identically to the C-Train.

[LeftCoaster]

I think the primary issue raised by Mr X is of grade separation. The reason why Skytrain is advocated as the grade separated alternate is that the line will tie into the existing millenium line and function as an extension of sorts, which is already skytrain. Underground LRT could certainly be used in a similar scenario but in this case if the project is going to be tunneled it would make no sense not to go with bombardier's skytrain.

[mr.x]

What we're proposing, or rather supporting, is a SkyTrain extension of the line that is yellow....from VCC/CLARK STATION TO UBC STATION:

map by deasine.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Beltliner

the only functional differences between the northwest leg of the C-Train from University to Crowfoot and Toronto's Spadina Subway from St Clair West to Yorkdale, as a case in point, are that Toronto's trains are longer than ours and that they operate from a third rail.

Can't be stressed enough. I often am told that Calgary's LRT is a "joke" compared to the vaunted TTC subway - yet a good chunk of Toronto's line is basically an LRT in everything but name. We could have longer trains with simple station rebuilds and I don't think the average commuter gives a damn how they're powered.

I've jokingly referred to the Toronto LRT many times just to get a rise out of people. Really though, the 2 systems have far more in common than they differ - outside of a few blocks in Calgary's downtown.

PS: good job on creating a thread with the word "vs" in it, that isn't closed yet.

[You Need A Thneed]

I think it makes much more sense to extend the skytrain. The technology is already in use, grade seperation is quite essential down that corridor it appears, and it allows the project to be an extention of the current system, which means the same cars can be used, and they can be stored/serviced in the same facilities.

15 minute travel time vs 35 minutes is a HUGE difference.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by wild wild west

My 2 cents is that LRT need not be grade-level. It can and indeed should be grade-separated in high-density corridors.

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

I think it makes much more sense to extend the skytrain.

I'm going to combine these two posts to form my two cents. They should apply what most median running Light Rapid Transit lines should, trench the Skytrain in the median of Broadway.

[Yume-sama]

I don't feel like I'm going to be stabbed on the LRT.

That's about the only difference... though the SkyTrain is more convenient than the LRT, and has a much broader reach... going to the Airport is a big +++++

[Calgarian]

I've never been on the skytrain, but I've ridden the C-train about 10 000 000x so maybe my input could still be valid. I would say the best option is to bury it (obviously the mose expensive), followed by elevating it (next most expensive), then at grade in it's own ROW (obviously the cheapest). Having at grade crossings car be a hinderance to traffic (Mcleod and 25th Ave in Calgary is testament to that).

Just my $.02

[Ferreth]

36th St N.E Calgary I think is most similar to Broadway (I have limited familiarity with Broadway, and know 36th too well) LRT snarled up 36th, particular regarding left hand turn, and to a lesser extent, cross 36th movements.

Broadway, from what I remember, is WAY busier than 36th is even now, so I'd say any "at grade LRT" is going to impact things worse than 36th. I'd also say above grade not so good - not nice to have an apartment beside this, and it would totally ruin the street scape I remember; this is 15 years back, so I'm sure it's changed some. Underground is the only way to go, especially considering the travel time.

I see Skytrain would work out to 1.2km station spacing; I think this is fine and works well in Calgary with similar spacing; the 2/3km spacing of the LRT seems excessive. Nothing stopping them from putting a few stations closer together where warranted.

Is there a BRT already running along Broadway these days, it might help bridge the gap until expensive underground works get built.

Hope my first post helps...

[Wentworth]

Outside of the student population, I'd say the Broadway corridor would be better served with a light rail system with more stops/stations. Students would be better served by investing the money saved in more on-campus housing.

I speak as a former Vancouver resident and former UBC student.

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by Riise

I'm going to combine these two posts to form my two cents. They should apply what most median running Light Rapid Transit lines should, trench the Skytrain in the median of Broadway.

Looking at the pictures of the traffic, total grade separation is the way to go. if the city of Vancouver has spent the money to do that, there's no reason to not go Skytrain.

Cut and cover or elevated.

Saves a transfer too for people who go in between the university and places along the millennium line.

[entheosfog]

Good god Broadway Avenue (sorry to be a nit-pick!!) is bad enough now without an at-grade lrt making it more of headache to navigate. One thing that I found 'interesting' about Calgary's downtown lrt, is how the train has to stop at traffic lights, rather than having the right of way. Maybe that's unavoidable though? Would the Broadway lrt do this, too? I found Calgary's lrt pretty good otherwise but, yeah, going underground downtown would make it that much better.
I think for the extra cost of burying the skytrain underground, it'll be well worth it in the long run, especially as Broadway gets built up more and more.

I also heard talk of a tram for Broadway?? Thoughts??

[srperrycgy]

Extending SkyTrain from VCC/Clark to UBC using existing technologies is the most logical way to go. Run the alignment underground for the majority of the route. Costs would be higher, but BC doesn't seen to have a problem getting signifigant Federal funding for transit projects, unlike ourselves. I would expect that the NIMBYs in the area would be a problem, particularly in the more wealthy areas. Gordon Campbell lives in Point Grey, right?

[fever]

It's Broadway, damnit. No street. No avenue. Just Broadway. You can put an East or a West in front, though.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

I think it makes much more sense to extend the skytrain. The technology is already in use, grade seperation is quite essential down that corridor it appears, and it allows the project to be an extention of the current system, which means the same cars can be used, and they can be stored/serviced in the same facilities.

15 minute travel time vs 35 minutes is a HUGE difference.

I concur with YNAT here 100%. Skytrain is the highest order of transit in Vancouver, and I do not see a reason why this corridor (which has at its end a major institutional and employment destination) should be served with anything less.

To answer a couple questions above:

Broadway, as I understand it, is not currently served by true BRT, but an express bus (98 or 99 B-Line, not sure of the number) that is basically the busiest bus route in Vancouver.

@entheosfog: The streetcar, as I understand it, was proposed as an alternative to LRT and Skytrain in the corridor. Basically a stupid idea, given the passenger volume that it would need to serve.

I have been somewhat following the formation of your group that is advocating for Skytrain in the corridor. I think it is a great idea and fully support your efforts. If similar NIMBY antics rise up in Calgary (once SELRT planning gets further along, for example), I would like to see some of us take the initiative you guys have and form such a group. It would have been nice to see something to counter the BWLRT group.

[PROSTSHOCKER]

Having rode both the C-Train and the Skytrain, I'd say the c-train is perfect for getting suburban populations into and out of the core. The problem with Broadway is that much of its length is very dense and it's the busiest artery of the city south of the downtown core. I can't imagine the traffic nightmare in the event of an LRT train breakdown in an intersection. The only logical method is to tunnel beneath from Cambie and surface toward UBC.