NC LRT Advocacy Group

[Wooster]

For those who care about NCLRT and the centre street alignment, it wouldn't hurt to have your voices heard about the notion to extend the SE alignment from downtown up to Centre Street.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Al...693/story.html

[Ferreth]

Thanks for the informative replies guys. That Infrastructurist you quoted Wooster has a nice chart comparing cost/mile of various transit options as well, here.

I think based on what I've read I'd rather see the city build a better BRT along Center St. To help with the permanence issue, really nice bus stops should be built - preferably on small parcels of land reserved for future subway stations. I'd even provide heating and security cameras. As well, the improvements Sir Humphrey mentioned. I could buy into the streetcar idea if the streetcar had it's own ROW at least from 16th Ave south into the downtown - people would equate that to LRT. If the current HOV lane with BRT actually gets you to downtown faster than a car going down Center, they should build on that strength.

Mid term, I would say commuter rail to downtown from Airdrie with a stop at a 96th Ave station to serve the far north + BRT connection to 96th.

Long term, A center street subway that ultimately connects to 96th avenue station for connections to HSR, Airport and the 'burbs. Initial subway staging would build in steps up Center as intensification warrants - with the 1st step across the river being the big dollar expensive push, to say 16th Ave as a 1st phase. There is a Safeway there that the city could partner with to build a parkade and free up the lot for a BRT interchange with a 1st stage subway into downtown. I'm sure the Safeway could see the benefits of being right beside a major transit interchange - I know I'd be using it if I was passing through. Considering they are talking 500mil for 8th Ave NW-South subway, I'd say just getting to 16th Ave is going to cost at least (guessing) $750 mil unless we are willing to put up with a long bridge over the east end of Prince's Island that gets us to a cut'n cover situation on Center sooner. It would be interesting to see a preliminary study of a deep tunnel vs bridge option over the Bow that takes into account the geology - without that the price really can't be nailed down to even within +/- 50%.

[eternallyme]

To force the issue, they should make Phase 1 of the Southeast LRT and Phase 1 of the North-central LRT the same project - from 16th Avenue to Quarry Park. If costs are too much, start it from 16th Avenue to Lynnwood or Ogden.

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

To force the issue, they should make Phase 1 of the Southeast LRT and Phase 1 of the North-central LRT the same project - from 16th Avenue to Quarry Park. If costs are too much, start it from 16th Avenue to Lynnwood or Ogden.

That is a good idea, but cutting off the SE Line at Ogden (or even Quarry Park) and cutting off the NC Line at 16th really misses out on a LOT of the ridership of each line. Having BRT and other buses run from further out and transfer to LRT is a bit unworkable that far into the city. Especially since the areas on the SE Line before Ogden (light industrial) and Centre St south of 16th (the hill) won't generate much ridership.

I'm in favour of building each line most of the way out in the first go, since anything else won't really provide ridership equal to the money spent (especially since the most expensive part is that downtown segment).

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by DarkKeyo

That is a good idea, but cutting off the SE Line at Ogden (or even Quarry Park) and cutting off the NC Line at 16th really misses out on a LOT of the ridership of each line. Having BRT and other buses run from further out and transfer to LRT is a bit unworkable that far into the city. Especially since the areas on the SE Line before Ogden (light industrial) and Centre St south of 16th (the hill) won't generate much ridership.

I'm in favour of building each line most of the way out in the first go, since anything else won't really provide ridership equal to the money spent (especially since the most expensive part is that downtown segment).

Since it would have to be tunnelled at least as far as 64th Avenue - and again in the Beddington area, the Centre Street section would be quite expensive too (but generating FAR more ridership than Nose Creek). Another huge advantage is that there is no dead-end tunnel, and additional capacity on the Northeast line (especially if it has to be branched later on), plus it could defer the 8th Avenue subway indefinitely as 7th Avenue would still operate decently.

[Policy Wonk]

Nose Creek as it develops will develop its own catchment in time as the surrounding area is redeveloped. However the North Central LRT will attract intense ridership from the North, the success of the 301 - to the point you can't actually squeeze yourself onboard south of Country Hills Blvd demonstrates this.

That area is going to see solid development all the way to Airdrie in the coming years, it is a fool proof alignment.

[eternallyme]

How much would it cost to do the entire corridor in one project - from Seton to Coventry Hills? That would include the entire Centre Street subway and the 2nd Street alignment downtown.

[mooky]

Between Deerfoot Trail, and the mandate of this city to leave green edges on natural areas, Nose Creek is a bad deal for a NC link. Deerfoot presents a giant obstacle due to it being a provincial road, and IIRC from the previous discussion about Cross Iron Mills, no entrances/exits from a provincial highway onto private roadways.... therefore unless you create new interchanges, you'd just be bottlenecking deerfoot along the existing plugged arteries further. Not to mention, its a pretty skinny parcel of land in a lot of respects, with a valley-like gradient to its topology, making development difficult. Not impossible, but difficult.

That said, if BRT is supposed to be used as an introduction to LRT service, why the 301N BRT route doesn't scream "SE-NC up Center street" is beyond me. I think it might have something to do with the the cost and potential train-wreck to a political career if drumming up public support for the expense isn't done correctly, and well, this city council is at the mercy of the Calgary Fishwrap (to pick on them, but they aren't alone in this regard) who sometimes portray an issue solely in terms of up front dollars, and not the payback or later cost for doing something half-assed in the first place.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

How much would it cost to do the entire corridor in one project - from Seton to Coventry Hills? That would include the entire Centre Street subway and the 2nd Street alignment downtown.

At this point none of us could really do more than guess. The city has estimated the cost of the SE line but that only reflects an educated guess, actual bids could differ widely, and they haven't done anything even close to that for a Centre Street alignment of the NC line. That said I'd place it at somewhere between four and five billion dollars.

[Northski]

If the province introduced a 5c$ per liter green tax on gasoline indexed to inflation to pay for the se to north central LRT it would take 30-50 years to build it.

As far as the Nosecreek alighment goes. If the ROW is not purchased from the railroad it would require expanding many of the overpass that go over Deerfoot. Does anyone know how big the ROW is under all the overpasses.

[Aegis]

Has anyone considered using 4th ST or Edmonton Trail as opposed to centre street for the NC LRT? or having multiple BRT lines up 4th ST, Edmonton trail, and Centre St?

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Northski

If the province introduced a 5c$ per liter green tax on gasoline indexed to inflation to pay for the se to north central LRT it would take 30-50 years to build it.

As far as the Nosecreek alighment goes. If the ROW is not purchased from the railroad it would require expanding many of the overpass that go over Deerfoot. Does anyone know how big the ROW is under all the overpasses.

A "green tax" in Alberta would be political suicide though. One way to speed up construction is to bring in private funds though...

[Aegis]

Originally Posted by Northski

If the province introduced a 5c$ per liter green tax on gasoline indexed to inflation to pay for the se to north central LRT it would take 30-50 years to build it.

As far as the Nosecreek alighment goes. If the ROW is not purchased from the railroad it would require expanding many of the overpass that go over Deerfoot. Does anyone know how big the ROW is under all the overpasses.

We already have gas taxes that are meant to fund infrastructure. I'm not against local improvement taxes if they have a strict mandate and expiry: ie: when the NC LRT is funded, the tax disappears.

I'm not aware if any such arragement has been implemented in Alberta before.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by mooky

That said, if BRT is supposed to be used as an introduction to LRT service, why the 301N BRT route doesn't scream "SE-NC up Center street" is beyond me.

The 301 just happens to travel on centre street, it functions much more as an express route connecting the North and Southwest to the core. When I take the 301 I rarely see more than a handful of people embark or disembark south of the 78th ave. bus loop before reaching downtown.

Although it is quite often impossible as 301's are often too full to stop.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

The 301 just happens to travel on centre street, it functions much more as an express route connecting the North and Southwest to the core. When I take the 301 I rarely see more than a handful of people embark or disembark south of the 78th ave. bus loop before reaching downtown.

Although it is quite often impossible as 301's are often too full to stop.

I live near 20th ave and Centre.. I would say that this far down with the #2 and the #3 most people feel it's easier to go to the closer bus stop (#2 or #3) than the far and few between 301 stops, and it's close enough to downtown that the 2 or 3 will get there in almost the same amount of time. Now if the 301 was a trolly or LRT, I'd possibly be taking it instead just for the improved riding experience.

[Northski]

The last time the gas tax was increased in Alberta was in 1991. Inflation means that there was a 50% cut in the tax over this time(the consumer price index went from 79.4 to 121). The idea that gas tax covers road infrastructure is absurd. The total provincial gas tax for Calgary in a year is about 185million. Which barely covers the ring road improvements done in a year. American cites have vote in some cases to levy sales taxes to pay transit and highway expansion. Vancouver and Toronto have local gas taxes to pay for local infrastructure.

[Aegis]

Originally Posted by Northski

The last time the gas tax was increased in Alberta was in 1991. Inflation means that there was a 50% cut in the tax over this time(the consumer price index went from 79.4 to 121). The idea that gas tax covers road infrastructure is absurd. The total provincial gas tax for Calgary in a year is about 185million. Which barely covers the ring road improvements done in a year. American cites have vote in some cases to levy sales taxes to pay transit and highway expansion. Vancouver and Toronto have local gas taxes to pay for local infrastructure.

The gas tax is a fixed rate per litre ; it's not related to the cost of fuel, and it shouldn't be. One could easily make the argument that the increase in volume of gasoline sold in the years since 1991 has far outpaced the "real" increase in gasoline price. It's not meant to fund the entire provincial budget.. it's good that the tax burden has decreased for consumers!!!

[Northski]

Give current natural gas prices and oil prices there will likely be cuts to municipalities (MSI) and money for highways. One way to reduce these cuts would be to raise the gas tax. Consumers will pay one way or the other through congestion or gas taxes-gas taxes are arguably cheaper.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Northski

The last time the gas tax was increased in Alberta was in 1991. Inflation means that there was a 50% cut in the tax over this time(the consumer price index went from 79.4 to 121). The idea that gas tax covers road infrastructure is absurd. The total provincial gas tax for Calgary in a year is about 185million. Which barely covers the ring road improvements done in a year. American cites have vote in some cases to levy sales taxes to pay transit and highway expansion. Vancouver and Toronto have local gas taxes to pay for local infrastructure.

The Province and the Feds have been levying the gas tax for ages and nothing much was done with the money until recently. To imply that roads are being favored over transit is dead wrong and to suggest that gas tax money go to transit is also bad policy and needs to stop. Good roads are the lifeblood of our economy. If there's a true need for more transit either up fares or have votes to see if the general public want to pay more either through taxes, bond issues, etc.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Aegis

Has anyone considered using 4th ST or Edmonton Trail as opposed to centre street for the NC LRT? or having multiple BRT lines up 4th ST, Edmonton trail, and Centre St?

Yes. It is actually "considering," as opposed to the past tense "considered." There is currently a north central corridor study underway being done by the MMM group. It may be done by now, I'm not sure. I haven't seen the report if it is complete. In speaking with one of their representatives at an open house awhile back, he seemed to think that the Edmonton Trail route was more probable than a Centre Street alignment.