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  #7301  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 5:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds View Post
That's the big flaw in your argument right there. Salt Lake City has seen consistent growth downtown over the last 40 to 50 years and it hasn't directly resulted in any dramatic changes.

I mean, I'd wager the 60s, 70s and 80s saw the most important growth of downtown Salt Lake City due to not only a vast majority of its skyline being established, but important landmarks were also created. The Salt Palace became a first-class arena for the city, something it had lacked up until 1969, in anticipation for getting the '72 Winter Olympics. Abravanel Hall opened up in 1979, bringing a truly word-class performance hall for the Utah Symphony.

You had the creation of ZCMI Center and Crossroads in the 1975 and 1980 respectively.

So downtown was not without its development.

But Main Street continued to wither away and die, even with malls anchoring the northern end. Much of the city fell to blight around downtown, even though new towers were being constructed every other year. We had the Utah Jazz now playing in downtown, even though the city still had limited entertainment options.

That's the point. Salt Lake is seeing great things, but we've been seeing great things for a long, long time. Has downtown improved? Sure! But it's still not at the level any of us hope (and if it is, you're mighty easy to please) and, knowing many who posted here in 2002, expected back when the Olympics rolled into town.

We've made good strides recently, but sadly, much of the same problems inflicting downtown in the 80s continues today. We're not a night-time city. Our sidewalks often do roll up after five and are eerily deserted on the weekends. There are moments, of course, with the likes of the Twilight Concert series and Jazz games and other events, but it's consecrated to certain areas and doesn't spill over to the core of the city.

Honestly, Main Street today isn't any better than it was ten years ago. It's still barely staying alive and it's disappointing, with all the talk about how this or that will improve the situation, we're still trying to figure out how to fix Main Street.

Now the big question will be whether or not City Creek will help all of Main Street or do what the other two malls did and take people off the street and force them to the center of block.

Sure, it looks nifty and pretty and it's an outdoor mall most of the time, but is it going to benefit the retail areas south of 100 S?

Is it going to help the areas not located inside the blocks?

I believe those are legitimate questions that we can ask without being called whiners.

And that doesn't even begin to discuss the area west of Main Street to the Gateway - which has been largely untouched and ignored since they bulldozed Japantown to build The Salt Palace.
That's why I think it's so important to build the broadway theater and office tower just south of CCC on Main. To get people out of the mall and down the street you need another fairly large anchor attraction within eyesight. Once you get them that far, it will be easier to get people to keep exploring down Main Street.
     
     
  #7302  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 7:22 AM
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Check this out... I'm not even joking

Shilo inn


Vegas plaza
I love it. I know it's gaudy as fuck, but at night, it's a neat looking building.

I wish more downtown towers would add whore house lights to their facade.
     
     
  #7303  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 3:19 PM
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ajiuO wrote:
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That would be awesome... They should build it on the empty block between north temple, south temple, 200 w, & 300 west.. It's right across the street from the salt palace and about half way between city creek and gateway. It would also fill in the gaping hole left by the triad centers failure
The LDS Church owns it and they'll never give it up and they'll never build a hotel. I agree it would be a great spot. In the '80's that was the location of a proposed Hyatt hotel.
     
     
  #7304  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 3:20 PM
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If anyone is interested, I created a photo thread containing some of the photos I did for the Utah Heritage Foundation.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=192933
     
     
  #7305  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 7:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Sight-Seer View Post
ajiuO wrote:

The LDS Church owns it and they'll never give it up and they'll never build a hotel. I agree it would be a great spot. In the '80's that was the location of a proposed Hyatt hotel.
When did the church take position of that block?

Why would you assume that they would never sale it or allow a hotel to be built? The whole block is surface parking... It's a waste of space. They could easily fit the same parking area underground or on a multi-level garage on one corner of the block. I could understand them not giving up the plaza hotel block because they have building on it... But having a whole block of nothing isn't doing the city any good... And considering the large investment that they are putting in to the city I can't imagine them standing in the way of something that could bring in more people and more $'s.
     
     
  #7306  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 8:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajiuO View Post
When did the church take position of that block?

Why would you assume that they would never sale it or allow a hotel to be built? The whole block is surface parking... It's a waste of space. They could easily fit the same parking area underground or on a multi-level garage on one corner of the block. I could understand them not giving up the plaza hotel block because they have building on it... But having a whole block of nothing isn't doing the city any good... And considering the large investment that they are putting in to the city I can't imagine them standing in the way of something that could bring in more people and more $'s.
I believe that lot is reserved for either more Church office buildings or for more space for future growth for the LDS business college and the BYU Salt Lake campus. The Plaza is currently for student housing for those schools and that location wont be used for a hotel.
     
     
  #7307  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 8:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajiuO View Post
When did the church take position of that block?

Why would you assume that they would never sale it or allow a hotel to be built? The whole block is surface parking... It's a waste of space. They could easily fit the same parking area underground or on a multi-level garage on one corner of the block. I could understand them not giving up the plaza hotel block because they have building on it... But having a whole block of nothing isn't doing the city any good... And considering the large investment that they are putting in to the city I can't imagine them standing in the way of something that could bring in more people and more $'s.

That land is reserved for future BYU Salt Lake Center Campus and LDS Business College expansion. Back in 2006 before the LDS church brought out the Triad Centers their original plan were to build their college on that parking lot to the east.
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1. "Wells Fargo Building" 24-stories 422 FT 1998
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5. "Key Bank Tower" 27-stories 351 FT 1976
     
     
  #7308  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 9:51 PM
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Originally Posted by SLC Projects View Post

That land is reserved for future BYU Salt Lake Center Campus and LDS Business College expansion. Back in 2006 before the LDS church brought out the Triad Centers their original plan were to build their college on that parking lot to the east.
I think a location on West Temple, 100S or 200S would likely be better anyway. While the mentioned location is currently only a parking lot, and it is across the street from part of the Salt Palace, it isn't near any of the major entrances to the Salt Palace. Furthermore, I think it would be more beneficial to the city to have the hotels nearer to commercial areas which are all located closer to 1st and 2nd South.

Several people have mentioned how they want more a retail connection between the Gateway and City Creek. I actually think that is a very poor idea right now. If such retail were created right now, it would kill Main Street for a very long time, in that people would walk the corridor on South Temple to the Gateway and back to City Creek. Until there is more traffic downtown, the city couldn't support other retail (outside of the malls) on both Main and South Temple without one suffering badly. I think it more crucial to develop Main south and then as the population increases we can worry about South Temple West. By that point the LDS Church is likely to have expanded BYU SLC and BC and will likely take up most of that city block, increasing the student presence right downtown. Thus in my mind, in the long run, creating a win-win with the wished for mega-hotel as well as younger and more vibrant residents.
     
     
  #7309  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Mac View Post
Well, I think the old gas station that was there would have looked better than a Family Dollar store. There is a Family Dollar right next door to the office building I am in on 500 West in Woods Cross. What a piece of crap it is. A giant square box painted gray with a sign above the doors.

Here is the old gas station that used to be there.

I loved that old gas station and was sad when it was torn down. I thought it would've been perfect to turn into a little office or retail outlet.
     
     
  #7310  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jtrent77 View Post
I think a location on West Temple, 100S or 200S would likely be better anyway. While the mentioned location is currently only a parking lot, and it is across the street from part of the Salt Palace, it isn't near any of the major entrances to the Salt Palace. Furthermore, I think it would be more beneficial to the city to have the hotels nearer to commercial areas which are all located closer to 1st and 2nd South.
It seems to me that 200 South could really benefit from a convention hotel being built at the intersection of 200 South and 200 West (on the Royal Wood Plaza (Post Office) site) connecting the east and west sides of downtown, south of the convention center. It would be equidistant between City Creek Center and the Gateway, giving those two retail centers a fair share of business from convention goers. That site is also along the proposed streetcar line...
     
     
  #7311  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 11:26 PM
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I don't think that the 200 South 200 West location is the preferred location for a convention center hotel. I would guess that the those involved with the City Creek Center would rather see a convention center hotel that is on the North or East side of the Salt Palace to get foot traffic to the CCC. If it is on the West side (i.e. replacing Royalwood Plaza) more traffic will go towards Gateway.

Here is my best guess as to where a convention center hotel would go:


It would take some dealing with Property Reserve (LDS Church) to get the property, but think about what a great location it would be. It is right at a TRAX station (on the line from the airport), half-way close to Temple Square, 1 block from City Creek, 2 blocks from Gateway, 1 block from Energy Solutions Arena, across the street from the North entrance to the Salt Palace and across the street from Abravanel Hall.

It would be a perfect place for a Grand Convention Center Hotel. Just imagine the new "urban canyon" along South Temple with this addition.

And yes, I know that the LDS church owns that land, but they don't want to see a convention center hotel build that leads people to the Gateway instead of City Creek. They would also get to keep the giant parking lot to the West to use later for BYU-SLC and LDSBC expansions and housing.
     
     
  #7312  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 11:29 PM
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Thats the location of the old greyhound bus station its also owned by the LDS Church and is part of the LDS business school and BYU Salt Lake campus.
     
     
  #7313  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 11:59 PM
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Salt lake isn't a city it's a church complex.
     
     
  #7314  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2011, 12:25 AM
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Salt lake isn't a city it's a church complex.
That's going to happen in any city with a major religion with its headquarters located there.
     
     
  #7315  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2011, 3:05 AM
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Originally Posted by ajiuO View Post
Salt lake isn't a city it's a church complex.
I have been a little surprised in the past to discover the various property the LDS Church owns. Now, Lord knows, I don't know what a church would want with several office buildings or a street turned plaza, etc, but I must respect that they are a large presence here. It's definitely not unique for a church to own and operate a school or to construct a place to meet (like the conference center).
     
     
  #7316  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2011, 5:12 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Stan View Post
I don't think that the 200 South 200 West location is the preferred location for a convention center hotel. I would guess that the those involved with the City Creek Center would rather see a convention center hotel that is on the North or East side of the Salt Palace to get foot traffic to the CCC. If it is on the West side (i.e. replacing Royalwood Plaza) more traffic will go towards Gateway.
If I remember correctly, Royal Wood Plaza is one of the proposed locations. Those involved with City Creek Center may prefer the convention hotel to be closer, but the purpose of building a convention hotel is not to support City Creek Center. City Creek Center will succeed on it's own; there is even the possibility that it will succeed too much and suck life away from the rest of the city. Locating the hotel equidistant between the two major shopping centers in downtown will ensure economic justice, and also help all the local retailers in between. Even still, City Creek Center will have the upper hand since the shopping center is across the street from both the main entrance to the Convention Center and Temple Square (Utah's most popular tourist attraction). Gateway will hardly get any business from conventions if the hotel is centered around City Creek Center. We still want the Gateway to stay alive and thrive as well.

Think of the downtown area functioning like a shopping mall; in malls there are "anchors" like Nordstrom and Macy's, they are placed at the ends of gallerias and act as magnets; they can be around corners, yet they still have the same effect; durring a shoppers journey from one magnet to the next, there are many opportunities for these shoppers to window shop and purchase items or food at an impulse, thus supporting the businesses in between. The Gateway and the soon to be City Creek Center can also function as "anchors," just on a larger scale.

However, if there is a gap (not the retail store) along the way, or if that galleria becomes a parking lot, it can easily derail the shopper and possibly end the shopping spree all together. Placing the hotel on the Royal Wood Plaza location has the potential to bridge the gap on 200 South and promote the development of undeveloped parcels nearby. There are already plans to fill the South Temple gap in with a BYU Salt Lake campus, so the North side of the convention center is covered.
     
     
  #7317  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2011, 6:19 AM
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However, if there is a gap (not the retail store) along the way, or if that galleria becomes a parking lot, it can easily derail the shopper and possibly end the shopping spree all together. Placing the hotel on the Royal Wood Plaza location has the potential to bridge the gap on 200 South and promote the development of undeveloped parcels nearby. There are already plans to fill the South Temple gap in with a BYU Salt Lake campus, so the North side of the convention center is covered.
Agreed. I've discussed the need to develop some connection between Main and the Gateway for years now and am probably sounding like a broken record. The western area of downtown has no symmetry - at least not until you get to the area around Gateway.

No one is walking from Main west to the Gateway and no one is walking from the Gateway east to Main. They're working independent of each other and that's a big shame. For downtown to really become viable, we've got to get foot traffic down 200 S & 100 S between the two major retail centers of the city.

If we don't, then I suspect downtown will continue to have its growth stinted.
     
     
  #7318  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2011, 9:09 AM
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Agreed. I've discussed the need to develop some connection between Main and the Gateway for years now and am probably sounding like a broken record. The western area of downtown has no symmetry - at least not until you get to the area around Gateway.

No one is walking from Main west to the Gateway and no one is walking from the Gateway east to Main. They're working independent of each other and that's a big shame. For downtown to really become viable, we've got to get foot traffic down 200 S & 100 S between the two major retail centers of the city.

If we don't, then I suspect downtown will continue to have its growth stinted.
100 south and south temple are the 2 main streets leading to the gateway. You cant really do anything with 100 south because the salt palace cuts across it. Once you get past west temple, south temple is about as boring as it gets. You have the plaza, a whole hell of a lot of parking lot, and the raw side of the salt palace. Then the salt palace once again devides 200 west.

I'm telling you as long as the sAlt palace is there, there can't be any flow between the 2 areas. You can't have something that divides and isolates the city like that so close to it's heart. There is a lot of space west of the gateway and rio grand that would be perfect for redevelopment for the construction of a new salt palace. Then you can open the city up, revitalize Japan town or something... Give people something interesting to flow through.

Salt lake has made 3 huge mistake in the past 30 years

1. Allowing the salt palace to extend over 200 west and become a convention center. This isolated parts of the city
2. Embracing the developers of the triad center. They demolished over 3 city blocks. Now the church owns it all and there is nothing exciting about it other then the delta center
3. Letting the church close the section of main street east of temple square... More isolation. Can you tel me how to get, how to get to main street?

I think if there church were to merge all the blocks from temple square to the triad center and then the salt place was to merge the post office block across 200 west and 100 south.... We would all be saved :/

Last edited by ajiuO; Aug 4, 2011 at 9:25 AM.
     
     
  #7319  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2011, 9:39 AM
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Your kind of stuck at a no win situation there.. 100 south and south temple are the 2 main streets leading to the gateway. You cant really do anything with 100 south because the salt palace devides it. Once you get past west temple, south temple is about as boring as it gets. You have the plaza, a whole hell of a lot of parking lot, and the raw side of the salt palace. Then the salt palace once again devides 200 west.

I'm telling you as long as the sAlt palace is there, there can't be any flow between the 2 areas. You can't have something that divides and isolates the city like that so close to it's heart. There is a lot of space west of the gateway and rio grand that would be perfect for redevelopment for the construction of a new salt palace. Then you can open the city up, revitalize Japan town or something... Give people something interesting to flow through.
It all depends how it's built up in that area. Look at 200 S between Main and the Gateway:



That to me is a far bigger issue right now than the Salt Palace. I agree, it's not exactly beneficial to the core. There is no retail and becomes a dead zone when there isn't a major convention in town.

But it's there to stay and I'm not ready to concede the area solely because the convention center was built in a bad area of downtown.

Look at all the parking on that map. That's what breaks up each block. No one wants to walk down 200 S when, every few steps, they're facing either a vacant building or a large lot of cars.

This, in my view, is where we need to push residential development - especially mixed-use. The more people who live there and can shop there the more foot traffic we're going to see in that area.

I also think the proposed streetcar line down 200 S will be a huge improvement for this area. That alone is going to give more foot traffic to the area. It needs it. If those parking lots and suburban-style buildings are developed into more urban, walkable projects, 200 S certainly could be more active and centralized than it is already.

Then people will want to walk from Gateway to Main and vice versa.

Regardless, if we don't do something, the growth downtown will be stinted and twenty years from now, we'll be rehashing the exact same debates.

Yes, the Salt Palace should have been developed outside the core, or at least blended more into the downtown area, but it is what it is. It's now a necessary evil and we can't concede that future development in that area won't work because of it.

If we do, then we might as well give up on downtown.
     
     
  #7320  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2011, 3:03 PM
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Very well said Comrade. I agree completely with you on that.
     
     
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