Salt Lake:Official development news thread - Part 2

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

They Hyatt Regency in San Francisco is far away from the Convention Center. Maybe we need to reconsider the necessity of the convention center hotel being connected with the convention center.

A) San Francisco is warm and a fun city to stroll around. But I bet even they would have built their convention hotel adjacent or connected if they could. I'm guessing they couldn't get any land nearby.

B) I know from personal experience that Visit Salt Lake has done studies and report that SLC needs a hotel either connected or no further than across the street.

[s.p.hansen]

Originally Posted by Stenar

A) San Francisco is warm and a fun city to stroll around. But I bet even they would have built their convention hotel adjacent or connected if they could. I'm guessing they couldn't get any land nearby.

B) I know from personal experience that Visit Salt Lake has done studies and report that SLC needs a hotel either connected or no further than across the street.

If I were, to say, research this further. Could you recommend certain studies to me?

The only issue I take with the warm fun city argument is that I could use it to argue for a skybridge (which to me maybe hints a mind open in one area and closed in another).

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

I just blew my own mind.



I need help picking up the pieces and being told that I'm full of it (I welcome it). I don't know if it took you disproving the Shilo Inn site, but I'm really wondering about the necessity of building a convention center hotel adjacent to the Convention Center. Is it really a convention center hotel because of proximity or because of the convention space inside? How does the one influence the success of the other?

I admit I don't know enough to argue either way, but consider this:

Developers and cities by default often put the parking adjacent or under a mall or lifestyle center.

In Portland the city actually offered the department stores Meier & Frank and Macy's two new parking garages (all expenses paid for) so that the city could place them a couple of blocks away from the stores.

Incorporating ideas from Jane Jacobs about creating foot traffic through the city to access different uses went against the standard practice of department stores and malls.

The move was a success and the retail between the parking garages and the department stores has thrived from all the foot traffic.



There are malls that lack faith in new urban principles (think skybridge and Taubman).

Do we lack faith in these principles? It may just be possible that a one size fits all of having the convention center hotel adjacent to the Convention Center isn't an ideal way to go. And just like with Portland, it may not even be requisite for the success of the development or enjoyment of its patrons to place it adjacent to the other half of its use.

So I humbly ask 3 things:

1). What convention center hotel location will best improve our skyline (how does its density and placement best jive with Salt Lake City's General Plan)?

2). What convention center hotel location will best serve the existing businesses?

3). How far can one build a convention center hotel from a convention center taking into account ease of street accessibility via pedestrian movement, bikes, transit, and cars (what are the precedents for cities with convention centers in denser areas)?

City Creek Center required a lot of compromises because it was a savior from our city's previously horrible decisions, we aren't in trouble yet with this new convention center hotel, so why are we so insistent on a one size fits all adjacent approach? Especially if the city is footing the bill on the parking accommodations for this thing.

While I agree with you that a convention hotel placed at a distance from the Salt Palace would benefit any businesses between the two, I guarantee you that many conventions would refuse to book conventions at a setup like that.

Just anecdotal evidence, I tried to get a convention here and the main hotel they would be in was Little America, 2 blocks away, and they refused as it was too far.

Also, if we're going to go with your far away model, we don't need to bother building anything new because Little America and Grand America are large enough to be our far away convention hotels.

[ajiuO]

[Future Mayor]

Simply replacing access to Pierpont via a new N/S road won't save pierpont. Pierpont is a great and successful street because it has through access, this plan destroys the N/S and E/W flow, it would become a dead inner block. That block can be accessed from N to south through the parking lot to the west of the Perry and E/W along Pierpont.

What makes this block so much better than the RWP?

I am however all for making that n/s street a reality, or at least a designated pedestrian walkway, but not at the expense of Pierpont, as shown.

[Old&New]

What an odd shaped hotel. Gastronomy would never allow their building on 200 West and 200 South to be demolished. Also, I told you not to touch "The Hotel" building.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by Old&New

What an odd shaped hotel. Gastronomy would never allow their building on 200 West and 200 South to be demolished. Also, I told you not to touch "The Hotel" building.

The "Hotel" is still there. It's Elevate and the little two story former photo supply store that are missing.

[s.p.hansen]

Originally Posted by Stenar

While I agree with you that a convention hotel placed at a distance from the Salt Palace would benefit any businesses between the two, I guarantee you that many conventions would refuse to book conventions at a setup like that.

Just anecdotal evidence, I tried to get a convention here and the main hotel they would be in was Little America, 2 blocks away, and they refused as it was too far.

Also, if we're going to go with your far away model, we don't need to bother building anything new because Little America and Grand America are large enough to be our far away convention hotels.

Little America and the Grand America have convention space comparable to what we trying to build?

[ajiuO]

A) The hotel would not be that shape... most of that is convention space.

B) This is just to deminstrate The usable space on the block to show people that its not the best place.

I stand by the PLAZA as my prime choice... I know its not going to happen but its still my choice.


another idea for advocates of the shilo in location might be to put a hotel where the shilo in is and more convention space where RWP is... i do think the shilo inn would be slightly better then RWP... for the hotel tower at least... horrible location for convention space.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

If I were, to say, research this further. Could you recommend certain studies to me?

The only issue I take with the warm fun city argument is that I could use it to argue for a skybridge (which to me maybe hints a mind open in one area and closed in another).

I didn't get the name of the study, they just told me about it when I was working with them to try and get a convention to come to SLC and was having difficulties because the nearest convention type hotel was 2 blocks away: Little and Grand Americas.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

Little America and the Grand America have convention space comparable to what we trying to build?

Yes, they do. Grand America has 75,000 sf of meeting space. Little America has 30,000 sf of meeting space.

[Old&New]

The problem with those is the Grand and Little are too far away from the Convention Center to be considered Convention hotels for the salt palace.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

Little America and the Grand America have convention space comparable to what we trying to build?

Exactly the point I've been trying to make about distance. Those two hotels are large and have convention space, yet, conventions have passed up the Salt Palace because there isn't a convention size hotel adjacent to the convention center. The organization hosting the convention likes to be able to schedule meetings throughout the convention that won't interupt to many peoples schedules while attending other classes and events at the convention itself. For instance when I attended the APA convention in Philly, all the states APA chapters and the student APA chapters had meetings with the national APA leaders. These were held in the convention hotel, connected to the convention center, because it allowed for a very short walk and was able to coincide with the regular meeting times of classes at the convention center. That can't be done timing wise and attendance would suffer, if at a distance off site location.

That is just one example. Do I know all the reasons why conventions like to have an adjacent hotel? No, but that is one.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Old&New

The problem with those is the Grand and Little are too far away from the Convention Center to be considered Convention hotels for the salt palace.

Yes, they are, but we're discussing s.p.hansen's idea that convention hotels don't need to be adjacent to convention centers.

[s.p.hansen]

Originally Posted by Stenar

Yes, they do. Grand America has 75,000 sf of meeting space. Little America has 30,000 sf of meeting space.

Yeah, well maybe this is curtains for my idea. I mean, I want to believe that maybe it seems twice as far away to a potential convention because of Holding's parking lot mote eviscerating his developments from the rest of downtown businesses and culture, but yeah, maybe people are just lazy and suck.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

Exactly the point I've been trying to make about distance. Those two hotels are large and have convention space, yet, conventions have passed up the Salt Palace because there isn't a convention size hotel adjacent to the convention center. The organization hosting the convention likes to be able to schedule meetings throughout the convention that won't interupt to many peoples schedules while attending other classes and events at the convention itself. For instance when I attended the APA convention in Philly, all the states APA chapters and the student APA chapters had meetings with the national APA leaders. These were held in the convention hotel, connected to the convention center, because it allowed for a very short walk and was able to coincide with the regular meeting times of classes at the convention center. That can't be done timing wise and attendance would suffer, if at a distance off site location.

That is just one example. Do I know all the reasons why conventions like to have an adjacent hotel? No, but that is one.

Yes, it's about timeliness and convenience. Not only for meetings, but for convention planners who need to quickly pop over and help set up and who sometimes need to take various materials with them and can't be dragging them over city blocks. And other similar things.

[s.p.hansen]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

Exactly the point I've been trying to make about distance. Those two hotels are large and have convention space, yet, conventions have passed up the Salt Palace because there isn't a convention size hotel adjacent to the convention center. The organization hosting the convention likes to be able to schedule meetings throughout the convention that won't interupt to many peoples schedules while attending other classes and events at the convention itself. For instance when I attended the APA convention in Philly, all the states APA chapters and the student APA chapters had meetings with the national APA leaders. These were held in the convention hotel, connected to the convention center, because it allowed for a very short walk and was able to coincide with the regular meeting times of classes at the convention center. That can't be done timing wise and attendance would suffer, if at a distance off site location.

That is just one example. Do I know all the reasons why conventions like to have an adjacent hotel? No, but that is one.

Yeah, maybe just one block away then.

But seriously, I think you and Stenar have pretty well destroyed my dreams today.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

Yeah, well maybe this is curtains for my idea. I mean, I want to believe that maybe it seems twice as far away to a potential convention because of Holding's parking lot mote eviscerating his developments from the rest of downtown businesses and culture, but yeah, maybe people are just lazy and suck.

I am always mad at Earl Holding for not building the Grand America on the block north of the Little America. It would have tied the Grand and Little into downtown more and while not quite close enough to be the main convention hotel would make it a good overflow hotel with a back door only 2 blocks from the Salt Palace, instead of 4.5 blocks.

If Grand was on the north block, they could have had a skybridge connecting both of their convention spaces and with the original design could have had more than 105,000 sf between them.

Also, Holding owned that entire block, but not the block he built the hotel on, so he had to change his original design because he couldn't get the flower shop and pawn shop to sell to him.

[ajiuO]

Just for you Future Mayor

[s.p.hansen]

Originally Posted by Stenar

I am always mad at Earl Holding for not building the Grand America on the block north of the Little America. It would have tied the Grand and Little into downtown more and while not quite close enough to be the main convention hotel would make it a good overflow hotel with a back door only 2 blocks from the Salt Palace, instead of 4.5 blocks.

If Grand was on the north block, they could have had a skybridge connecting both of their convention spaces and with the original design could have had more than 105,000 sf between them.

Also, Holding owned that entire block, but not the block he built the hotel on, so he had to change his original design because he couldn't get the flower shop and pawn shop to sell to him.

I've never met Holding, but I pretty much just picture him looking like a sickly Biff (in the Back to the Future movies) from the dystopian alternate universe where he develops that horrible and imposing casino hotel.