HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     
Welcome to the SkyscraperPage Forum.

Since 1999, SkyscraperPage.com's forum has been one of the most active skyscraper enthusiast communities on the web.  The global membership discusses development news and construction activity on projects from around the world, alongside discussions on urban design, architecture, transportation and many other topics.  SkyscraperPage.com also features unique skyscraper diagrams, a database of construction activity, and publishes popular skyscraper posters.

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Transportation

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 2:44 AM
jtk1519's Avatar
jtk1519 jtk1519 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 972
Dallas l DART Light Rail Expansion Updates

Quote:
DART shows off downtown stretch of its new Green Line
06:04 PM CDT on Monday, June 8, 2009
By NANCY VISSER / The Dallas Morning News
nvisser@dallasnews.com


DART officials took no chances during a test run Monday of the new Green Line light rail from Fair Park to downtown. Police were stationed at each intersection and construction workers held up stop signs, just in case the crossing arms didn't go down.

Or just in case some crazy motorist didn't realize there was a train crossing the street.

"We're bringing trains back to an area that hasn't had trains for 50 years. There's a learning curve for motorists and for train operators," said Morgan Lyons, DART spokesman.

That span of the Green Line will open in September with four stations, at MLK Boulevard, Fair Park, Baylor University Medical Center and Deep Ellum.

On Monday, dignitaries and media were invited to ride along, and no one had to walk back. Frank Jennings, DART vice president of transportation, said he was on a test run three weeks ago when a software glitch caused the train to lose power before reaching the Fair Park station. "We had to get a ride back," he said with a laugh.

Lyons said the line passed a round of tests last week in which the workers walked the trains through at 5 mph. The tests on Monday were at regular speeds, with workers monitoring the systems along the way.

"There were systems that we were still checking – making sure the substations talk to each other, making sure the signals are working and the crossing arms are going down," Lyons said.

He said eventually the operators will begin training along the line. "The operators need to learn the corridor, the track's characteristics and the neighborhood, because they need to see how the traffic flows in and around the intersections."

Meanwhile, work is continuing on the four stations. Workers are still laying brickwork at the MLK station and sod at the Baylor station.

At the Deep Ellum station on Good Latimer Expressway, a "Traveling Man" sculpture is under construction. The legs and hips of the 35,000-pound, 35-foot-high sculpture are in place, and the rest will go up in the next week or two.

This is the first leg of the $1.8 billion Green Line – the longest light rail project under construction in North America.

Eventually, the Green Line will run from north Carrollton to Pleasant Grove. Along the way, it will serve Farmers Branch, northwest Dallas (including Love Field), the area around Parkland Memorial Hospital and UT Southwestern Medical Center, and the Dallas Market Center.

The full Green Line – 28 miles in length – is to be completed by the end of 2010. The line is the largest part of an expansion that will double DART's rail network to more than 90 miles by 2013.

The Orange Line, also under construction, will branch off from the Green Line near Bachman Lake to serve Irving and Las Colinas in 2011 and Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport by 2013.

Staff writer Bruce Tomaso contributed to this report.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont....5eeb7bea.html


http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/greenline.asp

Video Link
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 8:14 AM
ChrisLA's Avatar
ChrisLA ChrisLA is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Long Beach
Posts: 6,235
Can't wait until it reaches Pleasant Grove in 2010. Now I can really go around the city with ease without a car when I visit some of my cousins. I have taken the bus from this neighborhood to downtown and the train beyound to the north side. Although its not that bad of a ride to downtown, the train is more to my liken.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 11:46 AM
Jasonhouse Jasonhouse is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 23,077
A better map depicting both new lines as well as the blue line extension...

__________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge".
Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 11:51 AM
Swede's Avatar
Swede Swede is offline
Chairperson YIMBY Sweden
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: sol.III.eu.se.08
Posts: 6,409
Looking great. But... all lines sharing the same tracks through the heart of the city? Any plans for shifting half to another street in the future if/when capacity is maxed out?
__________________
Forumers met so far:
Huopa, Nightsky, Jo, wolkenkrabber, ThisSideofSteinway, jacksom, New Jack City, LeCom, Ellatur, Jan, Dennis, Ace, Bardamu, AtlanticaC5, Ringil, Dysfunctional, stacey, karakhal, ch1le, Hviid, staff, kjetilab, Þróndeimr, queetz, FREKI, sander, Blue Viking, nomels, Mantas, ristov, Rafal_T, khaan, Chilenofuturista, Jonte Myra, safta20, AW, Pas, Jarmo K, IceCheese, Sideshow_Bob, sk, Ingenioren, Ayreonaut, Silver Creations, Hasse78, Svartmetall
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 3:05 PM
VivaLFuego's Avatar
VivaLFuego VivaLFuego is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 42nd Ward
Posts: 6,416
Looking good. Off-hand, this will make downtown Dallas much more attractive/competitive as a services employment center due to the drastically increased accessibility and capacity to get workers there. Good for the city.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 3:31 PM
urbanactivist's Avatar
urbanactivist urbanactivist is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Houston
Posts: 3,231
Amazing... I can't wait to ride the Green line!!

I wish Houston had (would) have built a "hybrid system from the start (one that can behave as both light rail and commuter rail). It's very smart, and the expansion opportunities are limitless. Hopefully we'll consider this model once our commuter rail phases become a reality.

G-O D-A-L-L-A-S!!! Next stop, the Orange Line
__________________
Photo Threads for Memphis, Dallas, Ft. Worth, Galveston (before Ike), Kansas City,Houston, more Houston
Little Rock, and New Orleans, cont'd.

For politics, check out my blog Texas Leftist
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 5:10 PM
KVNBKLYN KVNBKLYN is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swede View Post
Looking great. But... all lines sharing the same tracks through the heart of the city? Any plans for shifting half to another street in the future if/when capacity is maxed out?
In fact, they're planning on building a subway through downtown to add more capacity. DART's strategy seems to me to be quite smart. Built radial lines out of downtown, then when ridership is high (and thus political support) add a subway for the central section.

Here are the current options being studied (from DART's website):



More about it here: http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/downtowndallas.asp
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 9:55 PM
jtk1519's Avatar
jtk1519 jtk1519 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swede View Post
Looking great. But... all lines sharing the same tracks through the heart of the city? Any plans for shifting half to another street in the future if/when capacity is maxed out?
There are times when it feels maxed out now and there are just two lines running through now. It's going to be a b*tch in a couple of years. As was posted above, DART is working on a second alignment running through downtown. Most of the ones I have seen are either at street level or a subway running by/under the Government District and connecting back up around Deep Ellum if I'm not mistaken. There is a whole, long thread discussing it here...

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=6792

I don't think DART has officially settled on an alignment yet. This is the latest map I could find showing the proposals, but I could be way off...

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2009, 12:49 AM
Jasonhouse Jasonhouse is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 23,077
They should do 87 now and then do 84B like 5 years later. 84B would obviously need to tunnel under the convention center and connect with the existing blue and red line station at the CC, and then continue southward and interline with the blue and the red just southeast of the CC.
__________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge".
Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2009, 6:09 AM
electricron's Avatar
electricron electricron is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Granbury, Texas
Posts: 2,286
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonhouse View Post
They should do 87 now and then do 84B like 5 years later. 84B would obviously need to tunnel under the convention center and connect with the existing blue and red line station at the CC, and then continue southward and interline with the blue and the red just southeast of the CC.
I wish DART had the financial resources to build two more light rail corridors through downtown Dallas in the next 5 years, but it doesn't. DART only has the funds for one. After building the one new downtown corridor, DART will not have capital funds for more new light rail corridors until 2027, and with the economy ill this year, probably much later than 2027.

The Red & Blue lines already have a station under the Convention Center at grade level. It's impossible, even with the maximum 6% grade, to lower the rails in less than two blocks reach a station under the proposed Convention Center Hotel. And if it did, there's no way to get back to the Red and Blue lines heading north without reversing directions. The new Green & Orange lines are planned to eventually use the new downtown light rail corridor while the Red & Blue lines will remain on the old corridor. The Red & Blue line trains could interline with the Green & Orange line trains at the at grade wye between Union and Victory Stations and at the at grade wyes near the Deep Ellum station. The rail line with the most riders today, which would support interlined trains (meaning it could use more trains on it), is the Red line northern leg.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2009, 3:53 PM
Marquita Marquita is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6
I always thought that trains could solve a LOT of traffic problems. If you have them everywhere, you would see a lot more people take them.

Marquita Jensen
click here
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2009, 7:43 PM
TexasPlaya's Avatar
TexasPlaya TexasPlaya is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ATX-HTOWN
Posts: 1,156
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanactivistTX View Post
Amazing... I can't wait to ride the Green line!!

I wish Houston had (would) have built a "hybrid system from the start (one that can behave as both light rail and commuter rail). It's very smart, and the expansion opportunities are limitless. Hopefully we'll consider this model once our commuter rail phases become a reality.

G-O D-A-L-L-A-S!!! Next stop, the Orange Line
We should first see how well these lines do. Dallas's red line didn't stack up too good against Houston's red line. Furthermore, Houston has grade separated HOV lanes running down every major radial freeway so Houston needs to be careful in how implements commuter rail.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2009, 9:43 PM
jtk1519's Avatar
jtk1519 jtk1519 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasPlaya View Post
Dallas's red line didn't stack up too good against Houston's red line.
In what way?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2009, 2:34 PM
Jasonhouse Jasonhouse is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 23,077
Quote:
Originally Posted by electricron View Post
I wish DART had the financial resources to build two more light rail corridors through downtown Dallas in the next 5 years, but it doesn't. DART only has the funds for one. After building the one new downtown corridor, DART will not have capital funds for more new light rail corridors until 2027, and with the economy ill this year, probably much later than 2027.
Man, that sucks... Maybe the Feds will continue to shift highway money into rail projects, so you never know.

And regardless, I would still do the two lines, in whatever time frame it could be done.


Quote:
The Red & Blue lines already have a station under the Convention Center at grade level. It's impossible, even with the maximum 6% grade, to lower the rails in less than two blocks reach a station under the proposed Convention Center Hotel. And if it did, there's no way to get back to the Red and Blue lines heading north without reversing directions. The new Green & Orange lines are planned to eventually use the new downtown light rail corridor while the Red & Blue lines will remain on the old corridor. The Red & Blue line trains could interline with the Green & Orange line trains at the at grade wye between Union and Victory Stations and at the at grade wyes near the Deep Ellum station. The rail line with the most riders today, which would support interlined trains (meaning it could use more trains on it), is the Red line northern leg.
I don't think you understood, because I wasn't very detailed in my suggestion... I was proposing an underground platform at the CC as part of an all-new station. This would be especially needed if the new line terminated there (to save money) and some number of transfers would become the norm.

Also, if it was going to align with the existing red/blue lines, I figured the new line would leave the CC hotel station southbound and sort of loop to the SW a bit, so that it could swing around and line up with the existing e/w orientation of the tracks, so that its platform could be aligned under the red/blue platform...Then the new line would actually come out of the ground downline from the CC station, but before the Cedars station. (according to Google maps there's an open lot near where Powhattan St crosses the line)

Oh, and it wouldn't need to loop around to head north near the CC, because the people leaving the CC hotel station who want to go north on the red/blue would take trains bound for the eastbound (Marilla) alignment, not the southbound alignment (or alternately, they would head north from the CC hotel station and transfer at the West End station... or walk to it, or take a hotel shuttle). People already on the red/blue would stay there... Or, if DART wanted to add a connecting line from NB red/blue to EB 84B, thus making a much more direct 'bypass' connection to NB red/blue, that would be their choice to do so whenever a traffic study justified its construction.


And if I'm wrong on that stuff, the point is that I'm sure it could be figured out, and I think it would be awesome to have downtown sort of 'gridded' with 3 lines. A rather large swath of the downtown area would be gridded with stations every few hundred yards, with a nice locational mix to serve existing development and encouraging new development.
__________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge".
Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2009, 7:09 PM
electricron's Avatar
electricron electricron is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Granbury, Texas
Posts: 2,286
Lightbulb

I don't think you've seen everything Dallas and Dart are planning for downtown Dallas.
The number UNO idea in all their planning is to reduce the construction costs as much as possible, without sacrificing too much on peak hour capacity.
This of course means limiting the amount of tunneling. When Dart evaluation charts rank subways stations undesirable because the have security and safety issues, and commercially because of their low visibility; it is very apparent Dart doesn't want many miles of subway lines.
Dart light rail trains can transfer to commuter trains at either Union or Victory Stations. All Dart light rail trains will be able to transfer at the West Side station and with their sister paired line for almost half their lengths.
In Dart's phase III plans, Dart plans an Orange line branch along Scyene Road to Masters (Mesquite city limits), extending the Red line south to Red Bird (Duncanville city limits, and a new (?color?) line west towards Grand Prairie from downtown Dallas. How they plan to go over or under an expanded Stemmons Freeway (I-35E Pegasus Project) hasn't been looked at.
In downtown Dallas, Dallas and Dart are looking at building streetcar lines. These streetcar lines will be able to transfer to Dart light rail trains at Dart light rail stations. That's how Dallas and Dart plan to achieve your proposed grid pattern in downtown Dallas. Most likely, there will be at least one streetcar line in both north-south and east-west directions in additional to Dart's planned two light rail corridors.









Therefore, when you add the streetcar lines to the two light rail corridors through downtown Dallas, they don't need an extended subway line.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2009, 7:22 PM
Strange Meat's Avatar
Strange Meat Strange Meat is offline
I like this much better
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: 5280
Posts: 9,804
Looks like a nice system developing.
__________________
towers of skulls!!!!!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2009, 5:01 AM
TexasPlaya's Avatar
TexasPlaya TexasPlaya is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ATX-HTOWN
Posts: 1,156
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtk1519 View Post
In what way?
Ridership per mile.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2009, 7:00 PM
electricron's Avatar
electricron electricron is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Granbury, Texas
Posts: 2,286
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasPlaya View Post
Ridership per mile.
So what? Metro reports 39,500 rail riders per day, Dart reports a total of 71,100 rail riders per day. Source, both Wikipedia articles.
Riders per mile math:
39,500 / 7.5 = ~5300 passengers per mile.
71,100 / 45 = ~1600 passengers per mile.

Houston Metro's Red Line takes 30 minutes to travel a distance of 7.5 miles, Dallas Dart's Red Line takes 66 minutes to travel a distance of 27 miles. In 7.5 miles, Metro's line has 16 stations, averaging a station every 0.46 mile. In 27 miles, Dart's line has 25 stations, averaging a station every 1.1 mile. Why is it surprising Houston's Metro Red Line gets more ridership per mile? You're never further than a 1/4 mile between rail stations.

But, lets now compare the average speeds of the trains. Dart's Red Line trains average 25 mph, Metro's Red Line trains average 15 mph. When you're building a rail line out to the second ring of suburbs around a major city, speed is more important than riders/mile. I would like to point out Metro's Red Line doesn't even reach Houston's city limits in either the northern or southern direction. Additionally, it doesn't reach north of downtown Houston yet.

So, you're trying to compare Apples to Oranges. Dart has 13 member cities while Metro has 16 member cities. But, their Board of Directors are set up entirely differently. Metro has 7 Board Members, 5 appointed by Houston and 2 by the rest (15 cities). I think it is obvious Metro is set up to favor Houston unfairly. Meanwhile, Dart has 15 Board Members, split proportionally to member cities population. Presently, 8 represent Dallas, the remaining 7 represent the rest. I think it is obvious Dart isn't set up to favor Dallas unfairly.

Because of how the two Boards are set up, it easy to understand why Dart builds rail lines to the suburbs while Metro doesn't. I suggest the reason why Dart has twice the number of daily passengers on its trains is because rail actually goes to the suburbs.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2009, 8:52 PM
jtk1519's Avatar
jtk1519 jtk1519 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 972
It does seem a little disingenuous to try and compare Houston's red line, which is in all reality a street car system, to DART's red line which is over 3 and half times longer. Now, if you could isolate just the section of red line that runs through downtown from the Cedars station to the Pearl station, then you could compare that to Houston's line because for that short stretch, the two lines are similar in design and execution, but beyond that the DART red line leaves the city streets and becomes a true rapid transit line.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2009, 9:33 PM
VivaLFuego's Avatar
VivaLFuego VivaLFuego is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 42nd Ward
Posts: 6,416
Good explanation electricron.... the systems are only slightly comparable. I have to launch into similarly structured stuff when people ask why the Chicago L isn't more like the Washington Metro. Different technologies using different rights of way through areas that actually have quite different historical contexts.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Transportation
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 3:06 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.