Gateway Discussion: Port Mann Bridge/Hwy 1/RapidBus

[agrant]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

I love the new Port Mann bridge, I wasn't commenting on that in any way. That certainly is impressive, and welcomed, but I was commenting more or less on how the new Port Mann Bridge is about 15-20 years late, if you compare to other North American locations.

The bridge is MASSIVE, but I was commenting on the whole of the Gateway project. It's generally just playing catch-up with the rest of the areas. Cape Horn is a fantastic interchange, but I was talking more from a drivers perspective that if you don't really have an interest in roads or highway design, I don't know if it would be that "awe-inspiring" driving through.

I would support a nice urban freeway to downtown Vancouver, one that was built with the environment in mind, integrated well with the land use, and was in some ways lowered beneath the ground. Maybe I'm the only one, but for example, you all mention how glad you are that Gastown is there, but I really think a Gastown-like neighbourhood would have evolved somewhere nearby IF a freeway was built through there.

I'm absolutely against a freeway that is raised/elevated, or that is wide, but I certainly would be OK with a nice subgrade freeway that would integrate well with downtown. I just believe something is wrong when at times it's quicker to take TCH 1 over the Ironworkers to the Lions Gate to access downtown compared to First Avenue or Hastings.

And, I should explain, growing up in Ontario, and seeing how things are done here in highway design (high design criteria, large and impressive stack interchanges), it's really easy to compare on my end. In that way, I'm NOT advocating a 12-16 lane freeway like Vancouver, but just something built with the highest level of safety in mind.

It might be nice to have a little sub grade freeway to connect downtown to the HWY, but I have my doubts as to how much it would actually improve people's lives. And for what? About 10 billion dollars??? It is maybe a half hour drive at most, probably less outside of rush hour. So... big deal. Btw - going the North Shore route... you have to contend with another problem - the Lions Gate Bridge traffic. Sometimes it can take 20 minutes just to get onto the bridge. The Los Angeles way (or in your case, Boston's big dig way) simply isn't Metro Vancouver's way. I keep going back to the stats that show Vancouver's commuting times being on par, or less than other major cities in Canada... How that works, I have no idea. Maybe there is something to having a multi city centre system.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by agrant

It might be nice to have a little sub grade freeway to connect downtown to the HWY, but I have my doubts as to how much it would actually improve people's lives. And for what? About 10 billion dollars??? It is maybe a half hour drive at most, probably less outside of rush hour. So... big deal. Btw - going the North Shore route... you have to contend with another problem - the Lions Gate Bridge traffic. Sometimes it can take 20 minutes just to get onto the bridge. The Los Angeles way (or in your case, Boston's big dig way) simply isn't Metro Vancouver's way. I keep going back to the stats that show Vancouver's commuting times being on par, or less than other major cities in Canada... How that works, I have no idea. Maybe there is something to having a multi city centre system.

Yeah, it would be far too expensive to look into doing now, and 10 billion dollars for land expropriation and the like sounds pretty reasonable.

There is something with urban roadways that is somewhat interesting, it's called critical mass.

If Vancouver had 16 lane highways criss-crossing the region, they'd be JUST as congested as they are with 6 lanes. More lanes, mean it would be easier to drive, more people driving, congestion returns until it gets so bad no more people chose to drive rather than take transit.

Toronto widened the 401 from 4 to 16 lanes in the 1970s. Didn't take long for traffic congestion to take just as long on the old 4 lane highway compared to the new 16 lane highway.

Therefore, in Metro Vancouver, where there is great transit available for those who choose to take it, the widening to 4 lanes each way (1 being HOV) is appropriate. However, I'll still argue that widening east of Surrey into Langley through Abbotsford should be done, because there is no decent transit alternative available, and likely there won't ever be something there for decades that would compare to driving.

There's something normal about being stuck in traffic in an urban area, but when you're in a rural location (hello Highway 1 & 232 Street), nothing bothers me more.

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Yeah, it would be far too expensive to look into doing now, and 10 billion dollars for land expropriation and the like sounds pretty reasonable.

There is something with urban roadways that is somewhat interesting, it's called critical mass.

If Vancouver had 16 lane highways criss-crossing the region, they'd be JUST as congested as they are with 6 lanes. More lanes, mean it would be easier to drive, more people driving, congestion returns until it gets so bad no more people chose to drive rather than take transit.

Toronto widened the 401 from 4 to 16 lanes in the 1970s. Didn't take long for traffic congestion to take just as long on the old 4 lane highway compared to the new 16 lane highway.

Therefore, in Metro Vancouver, where there is great transit available for those who choose to take it, the widening to 4 lanes each way (1 being HOV) is appropriate. However, I'll still argue that widening east of Surrey into Langley through Abbotsford should be done, because there is no decent transit alternative available, and likely there won't ever be something there for decades that would compare to driving.

There's something normal about being stuck in traffic in an urban area, but when you're in a rural location (hello Highway 1 & 232 Street), nothing bothers me more.

You've never been stuck in traffic east Chillowack trying to make a ferry. Had that happen to us hauling horses out of AB. Even with the heavily loaded trailer, in the rain, bombing through the farmlands south of the freeway, we managed to get to Langley faster than had we stayed on the highway. Still had to spend the night at a friends, though. But at least we made it there before midnight.

[red-paladin]

I know that in Melbourne or so, they built a toll express tunnel like we are speaking about (dispite the fact that they have freeways in the city) and it's been a failure financially as not enough people want to pay to use it.

As for agrant's talk about traffic patterns, I think the multi city centre aspect is part of it, I also think the fact that the trips are to different locations and the norm. Although exaggerating here, it's not uncommon to have American cities where most of the people live in the suburbs and work downtown or in an industrial district. They all drive in in the morning rush hour, and they all drive out in the afternoon. So you need to have 10 lane freeways even only one direction is at capacity for 4 hours a day and the other for the opposite rush hour. In Vancouver, as shown by Translink charts, there are still a major portion of commuters driving from the suburbs to the City of Vancouver itself, but there thousands of people that live in Vancouver or Burnaby that 'counter commute' and go the opposite direction. There are also living in Brentwood and working in Richmond, etc, etc. So instead of having a 12 lane freeway that is clogged at rush hour each direction once a day, we have streets and highways that have varrying levels throughout the morning and afternoon from all the different trips. The fact that the (old) Port Mann bridge is literally congested all day both directions, and other routes also well travelled for much of the day, demonstrates this. Also, I work overnight downtown and live in Metrotown, so I am counter commuting in a sense also. When I head home in the morning, there are plenty of people using the skytrain in the counter-commuting direction.

[troublemaker]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

"oh hey, Vancouver, and British Columbia finally decided to join the rest of North America with a modern highway!"

I hope the foundation of this new, modern highway is being built to higher standards than the old one, which has developed some incredible waves and undulations on the Burnaby stretch.

[Metro-One]

I am also hoping the removal of those ripples (most noticeable are the ones directly east of the Kensington Interchange) and re-surfacing of the entire stretch being worked on is part of this project as well. The entire highway has been cut up so much for this project it is an awful patchwork now (which is understandable) so it better be re-surfaced upon completion.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I am also hoping the removal of those ripples (most noticeable are the ones directly east of the Kensington Interchange) and re-surfacing of the entire stretch being worked on is part of this project as well. The entire highway has been cut up so much for this project it is an awful patchwork now (which is understandable) so it better be re-surfaced upon completion.

That's the least of my concerns. Of course it will be. Nice smooth blacktop from the Cassiar Tunnel to 202 Street in 2013.

Will the Port Mann bridge have an asphalt or concrete surface?

[Metro-One]

asphalt.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

I know that in Melbourne or so, they built a toll express tunnel like we are speaking about (dispite the fact that they have freeways in the city) and it's been a failure financially as not enough people want to pay to use it.

As for agrant's talk about traffic patterns, I think the multi city centre aspect is part of it, I also think the fact that the trips are to different locations and the norm. Although exaggerating here, it's not uncommon to have American cities where most of the people live in the suburbs and work downtown or in an industrial district. They all drive in in the morning rush hour, and they all drive out in the afternoon. So you need to have 10 lane freeways even only one direction is at capacity for 4 hours a day and the other for the opposite rush hour. In Vancouver, as shown by Translink charts, there are still a major portion of commuters driving from the suburbs to the City of Vancouver itself, but there thousands of people that live in Vancouver or Burnaby that 'counter commute' and go the opposite direction. There are also living in Brentwood and working in Richmond, etc, etc. So instead of having a 12 lane freeway that is clogged at rush hour each direction once a day, we have streets and highways that have varrying levels throughout the morning and afternoon from all the different trips. The fact that the (old) Port Mann bridge is literally congested all day both directions, and other routes also well travelled for much of the day, demonstrates this. Also, I work overnight downtown and live in Metrotown, so I am counter commuting in a sense also. When I head home in the morning, there are plenty of people using the skytrain in the counter-commuting direction.

Without knowing the the facts I would assume that it is likely not the freeway that is a failure but the implementation of the tolls. I think not enough thought is given to how to implement tolls because people unlike the planers dont think rationally. When people(that means all of us) make decisions on how to commute they dont see all the facts and numbers, they dont see the bigger picture and make their decisions based on a much simpler and limited view of the facts. That is why tolls are so effective in shaping commute patterns, they work better then they should. Over time regular commuters will randomly have moments where they stop and think and actually figure out the bigger picture and make a rational decision, but this takes time, and even then it doesn't change the fact that new or non regular commuters will still make irrational choices on how they commute.

This is why I hate tolls, they make no sense. How can it make sense to build infrastructure to reduce commute times and congestion only to charge people for it and push them back on to the old inadequate infrastructure that was the problem in the first place.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Without knowing the the facts I would assume that it is likely not the freeway that is a failure but the implementation of the tolls. I think not enough thought is given to how to implement tolls because people unlike the planers dont think rationally. When people(that means all of us) make decisions on how to commute they dont see all the facts and numbers, they dont see the bigger picture and make their decisions based on a much simpler and limited view of the facts. That is why tolls are so effective in shaping commute patterns, they work better then they should. Over time regular commuters will randomly have moments where they stop and think and actually figure out the bigger picture and make a rational decision, but this takes time, and even then it doesn't change the fact that new or non regular commuters will still make irrational choices on how they commute.

This is why I hate tolls, they make no sense. How can it make sense to build infrastructure to reduce commute times and congestion only to charge people for it and push them back on to the old inadequate infrastructure that was the problem in the first place.

It's not Melbourne, it's in Brisbane.

what a gongshow this was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clem_Jones_Tunnel

Patronage of the tunnel decreased by more than 65% in the week following the introduction of a reduced toll period, and remains considerably lower than the predicted traffic volumes.[8] Despite being completed on-time and on-budget, the Tunnel has been an economic failure due to incorrect predictions of traffic volume. RiverCity Motorway has been unable to collect enough tolls to pay the interest on its $1.3 billion debt and went into receivership.[9] With no hope of profit, and therefore no dividend, RiverCity Motorways shares are now worthless, costing investors millions.

[troublemaker]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

That's the least of my concerns. Of course it will be. Nice smooth blacktop from the Cassiar Tunnel to 202 Street in 2013.

I was thinking more of what's going to be _underneath_ the nice smooth blacktop.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by cornholio

This is why I hate tolls, they make no sense. How can it make sense to build infrastructure to reduce commute times and congestion only to charge people for it and push them back on to the old inadequate infrastructure that was the problem in the first place.

Actually, I strongly suspect that we could have solved the congestion and commute time problems with the Port Mann bridge simply by tolling it, no need to build a new bridge. Of course that would have been politically impossible - the only practical way to implement tolls is with the "carrot" of the new bridge. And as other bridges (like the Patullo) are replaced, expect the same thing to happen.

Once the tolls are in place, they can be increased as necessary to limit congestion.

[VanCvl]

Originally Posted by troublemaker

I was thinking more of what's going to be _underneath_ the nice smooth blacktop.

The Kensington and Willingdon areas have underlying peat, with the original highway built on hog fuel. I know they piled the approach ramps at the overpasses but I'd be surprised if they did anything on the highway itself. They would need a massive detour to excavate the freeway and install EPS or pumice.

[troublemaker]

If they just fill the road embankment to level it, won't that increase the load on the subsoil and make the settling worse?

[GeeCee]

January 30, 2012 - Upcoming Change to Highway 1 HOV Lane Use on Weekends

Beginning Friday February 3, High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lanes on Highway 1 will be open to all traffic on weekends - from 7 p.m. on Friday to 6 a.m. on Monday. This temporary adjustment applies to HOV lanes between Grandview Highway and the Port Mann Bridge (both east and westbound).

The HOV lanes will continue to be designated for high occupancy vehicles only from 6 a.m. to 7 p.m. Monday to Friday. During this period, vehicles must have two or more occupants to travel in this lane.

http://www.pmh1project.com/info-cent...-Weekends.aspx

[officedweller]

Webcam pics from today:

Girder is up across TCH for Lougheed to eastbound TCH ramp:

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[East Van]

Originally Posted by GeeCee

http://www.pmh1project.com/info-cent...-Weekends.aspx

Why did this take 17 years to figure out ?

[Prometheus]

It will be interesting to see exactly how the old Port Mann Bridge will be dismantled.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

It will be interesting to see exactly how the old Port Mann Bridge will be dismantled.

My guess is that the approaches will be demolished in great haste, so that the new bridge can be finished. The center span may be demolished much later.

[Cypherus]

Originally Posted by Zassk

My guess is that the approaches will be demolished in great haste, so that the new bridge can be finished. The center span may be demolished much later.

I think they will finish the new bridge first before they dismantle the approaches of the old bridge...