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  #1  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2009, 1:06 PM
bornagainbiking bornagainbiking is offline
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Caledonia militia

The term militia is commonly used today to refer to a military force composed of ordinary citizens[1] to provide defense, emergency law enforcement, or paramilitary service, in times of emergency without being paid a regular salary or committed to a fixed term of service. It is a polyseme with multiple distinct but related meanings. Legal and historical meanings of militia include:

Defense activity or service, to protect a community, its territory, property, and laws.

Is a Militia required for Caledonia.
Are all residents being afforded proper police protection and equal application of law?
It is a fine line everyone walks to maintain peace but at what expense and level of respect?
This has been going on for years now and no resolve.
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  #2  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2009, 3:02 PM
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A militia isn't required. What we need is for everyone to come to the table and solve the land claims dispute.

Quote:
in times of emergency
The Caledonia dispute isn't an emergency.
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  #3  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2009, 7:40 PM
DHLawrence DHLawrence is offline
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They may be unarmed now, but by the time this mess is over with, someone is going to be dead. No question.
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  #4  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2009, 8:18 PM
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How much more of their land has be taken away? How much more native culture and heritage must be destroyed for Canada? Haven't we taken away enough already? Weren't the 50,000+ native children that government murdered in the residential schools not enough? Was genocide not enough? How many more natives need to be killed and raped to satisfy Canadians?
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  #5  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2009, 9:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DHLawrence View Post
They may be unarmed now, but by the time this mess is over with, someone is going to be dead. No question.
No one has to die. But bringing in a militia will make something like that more likely.
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  #6  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2009, 12:04 AM
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Who knew suburban expansion could bring out the worst in people?
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  #7  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2009, 11:18 AM
bornagainbiking bornagainbiking is offline
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It's all in perceptive

Vid: it's not an emergency? Just ask the people who live in Caledonia. Taxpayers expect some return for their investment. It is an emergency so they have some right to a normal life. Put yourself in their shoes for several years of uncertainty and look at a map the land claim goes from 5 miles each side of the Grand river that is alot of lost property and homes.
DH: I agree with your statement but not in resorting to violence. However people will get pissed off and their reaction will escalate with inaction on the part of the government. hard to govern emotion.
Sorry to say but this is 2009 and most of the people involved in the original isue are long dead. Be realistic these were sins of out fathers or if your family imigrated after that.
there is no original cast of characters.
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  #8  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2009, 3:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bornagainbiking View Post
it's not an emergency? Just ask the people who live in Caledonia. Taxpayers expect some return for their investment. It is an emergency so they have some right to a normal life. Put yourself in their shoes for several years of uncertainty and look at a map the land claim goes from 5 miles each side of the Grand river that is alot of lost property and homes.
It isn't like the town is under siege. There is other land around the community, there are other roads leading out of the town. Native people have as much right to a normal life as residents of Caledonia, but many native people live in poverty, even in Southern Ontario. Caledonians should instead press the government to find a solution to this dispute instead of threatening violence.

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However people will get pissed off and their reaction will escalate with inaction on the part of the government.
URGE GOVERNMENT ACTION! Holy fuck what a crazy notion! I must be batshit insane!

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Originally Posted by bornagainbiking View Post
Sorry to say but this is 2009 and most of the people involved in the original isue are long dead. Be realistic these were sins of out fathers or if your family imigrated after that.
there is no original cast of characters.
And this is where a stunning example of ignorance shines through. You honestly think that when someone has a child the entire world starts anew and everyone is equal? The social issues plaguing aboriginals today originate with what was done to their ancestors years ago!

How would Caledonians like it if the Six Nations could, on a whim, decide to move them all to Port Dover, because they "had other intentions for the land"? The Canadian government (and its predecessor governments) did that many times to First Nations communities. Forced relocations, removal of land and rights, forced assimilation and abuse in schools and from members of the community created and continue to exacerbate these problems.

The "original cast of characters" is dead, but their problems are still very much alive.
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  #9  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2009, 4:10 PM
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They've been urging for government action since 2005. All they get is people like David Peterson, Jane Stewart, Barbara McDougall, etc. all getting paid well over $200 an hour. It's been years, 2005, and still nothing has been resloved.

If the government can't do anything and the OPP ignore the problems, especially with Julian Fantino it's no wonder a militia was created.
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  #10  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 1:45 AM
bornagainbiking bornagainbiking is offline
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Local look

It is easy to render an opinion from afar. Please check out the blogs in the hamilton spectator.
http://thespec.typepad.com/specthrea...igilantes.html
In every conflict depnding on what side you favour
some are called freedom fighters and some terrorists.
it is not right to defy civil authority and block public highways or two tiered justice.
Funny the mohawks are called warriors and wave flags with covered faces and camoflage clothing and the citizens try to organize in an open hall for support and they are vigilantes. WOW
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  #11  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 4:21 AM
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You know that their tax-free status, free education and housing and so on are entrenched in the very agreements that allow Canada to legally exist on this land, right?

What they are doing isn't right but countering their wrong with another is even worse. Forming a militia will only exacerbate the gravity of the situation and probably result in deaths, and that's the last thing we need. This country needs a better way to deal with land claims disputes, and it needs non-native people to press for this because the government never gives a shit about native issues when natives bring them up themselves.
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  #12  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 2:42 PM
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I support anyone's right to form a militia. Although militias are usually formed by citizens in order to defend themselves from an increasingly tyrannical government. There is nothing wrong with people forming armed militias. They simply need to act responsibly, not kill citizens, or they will be held responsible.
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  #13  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 3:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post
It isn't like the town is under siege. There is other land around the community, there are other roads leading out of the town. Native people have as much right to a normal life as residents of Caledonia, but many native people live in poverty, even in Southern Ontario. Caledonians should instead press the government to find a solution to this dispute instead of threatening violence.
Sure they have a right to a normal life like other Canadians, but no one has a 'right' to not be in poverty. You've got your whole notion of human rights very screwed up, Vid.

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URGE GOVERNMENT ACTION! Holy fuck what a crazy notion! I must be batshit insane!
That IS a crazy notion. They've been trying it and it hasn't worked.

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Originally Posted by vid View Post
And this is where a stunning example of ignorance shines through. You honestly think that when someone has a child the entire world starts anew and everyone is equal? The social issues plaguing aboriginals today originate with what was done to their ancestors years ago!
There is no such thing as equality. Nothing on this earth is inherently equal, much less entitled to be equal. Not individuals, and not groups. I would love to win the 100m sprint in the Olympics, but I am just not as fast as Donavon Bailey.

What more needs to be done to make the natives economically equal, Vid? They get free education and don't have to pay any taxes. A native person could be living in Winnipeg, have no connection to their aboriginal culture and still be entitled to these benefits because of their race. Is that equality? It is amazing what the Canadian education system does to people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post
How would Caledonians like it if the Six Nations could, on a whim, decide to move them all to Port Dover, because they "had other intentions for the land"? The Canadian government (and its predecessor governments) did that many times to First Nations communities. Forced relocations, removal of land and rights, forced assimilation and abuse in schools and from members of the community created and continue to exacerbate these problems.
I have no problems with Natives fighting for land they have a legitimate claim on, but what does economic equality have anything to do with it?

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Originally Posted by vid View Post
You know that their tax-free status, free education and housing and so on are entrenched in the very agreements that allow Canada to legally exist on this land, right?

What they are doing isn't right but countering their wrong with another is even worse. Forming a militia will only exacerbate the gravity of the situation and probably result in deaths, and that's the last thing we need. This country needs a better way to deal with land claims disputes, and it needs non-native people to press for this because the government never gives a shit about native issues when natives bring them up themselves.
Forming militias does not create deaths. People create deaths. In the Soviet Union, the citizens had their firearms taken away, but the KGB still had their's. Under that government, more people were systematically killed than any other in recent history (and yes, a lot more people died in gulags than in Nazi concentration camps).
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  #14  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2009, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Cambridgite View Post
Sure they have a right to a normal life like other Canadians, but no one has a 'right' to not be in poverty. You've got your whole notion of human rights very screwed up, Vid.
It isn't the "right to not be in poverty", it's the "right to be free from the restrictions on your rights that will result in you having difficulty getting out of the cycle of poverty".

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That IS a crazy notion. They've been trying it and it hasn't worked.
Then they haven't been trying it hard enough.

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Originally Posted by Cambridgite View Post
There is no such thing as equality. Nothing on this earth is inherently equal, much less entitled to be equal. Not individuals, and not groups. I would love to win the 100m sprint in the Olympics, but I am just not as fast as Donavon Bailey.
Even non-aboriginal people deal with the same issues many aboriginal people deal with, but they aren't as concentrated as aboriginal people are. We have entire communities of people using drugs to deal with the effects of trauma and we're doing little to help them get over these problems. The police in their communities work out of mouldy trailers that lack bathrooms facilities. That's inequality, and yes, inequality does exist, but to this degree? In Canada? It shouldn't. An police office from Toronto in the shoes of a police officer in Pikangikum would probably be overwhelmed by what they had to deal with, and in the case of aboriginal police, they often have to do what they do alone.

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Originally Posted by Cambridgite View Post
What more needs to be done to make the natives economically equal, Vid? They get free education and don't have to pay any taxes. A native person could be living in Winnipeg, have no connection to their aboriginal culture and still be entitled to these benefits because of their race. Is that equality? It is amazing what the Canadian education system does to people.
Greater autonomy. An aboriginal law code, aboriginal government and education systems, the ability to actually solve their own problems without jumping through our hoops.

They get free education, but it isn't their own culture they learn. Native organizations frequently have difficulty getting funding unless they programme their education curriculum the way the government says they have to. They don't have enough flexibility in that area to foster language and culture retention and our schools refuse to invest much more into that than "Native appreciation day". Yeah, it is amazing what the Canadian education system does to people.
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  #15  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2009, 7:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post
It isn't the "right to not be in poverty", it's the "right to be free from the restrictions on your rights that will result in you having difficulty getting out of the cycle of poverty".
What restrictions do they have on their rights that aren't applied equally to non-aboriginals?

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The police in their communities work out of mouldy trailers that lack bathrooms facilities.
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Originally Posted by vid View Post
Greater autonomy. An aboriginal law code, aboriginal government and education systems, the ability to actually solve their own problems without jumping through our hoops.
So would separate states and governments be what you have in mind? Sounds reasonable to me.

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Originally Posted by vid View Post
They get free education, but it isn't their own culture they learn. Native organizations frequently have difficulty getting funding unless they programme their education curriculum the way the government says they have to. They don't have enough flexibility in that area to foster language and culture retention and our schools refuse to invest much more into that than "Native appreciation day". Yeah, it is amazing what the Canadian education system does to people.
Well, I have no problem with natives having their own schools and learning about their own culture/history. But if they ever want to move to the cities and compete with everyone else, they would have to conform to the most essential norms of Euro-transported Canadian culture on top of that.
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Old Posted Jun 27, 2009, 6:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post
Forced relocations, removal of land and rights, forced assimilation and abuse in schools and from members of the community created and continue to exacerbate these problems.
If this were true, the problems would be less among natives and native groups that were less affected by these occurrences. Is there any evidence that that is the case? For example, are there native groups that had relatively little exposure to residential schools -- are they noticeably better off than other groups? Are there natives that long continued to live more or less traditional lifestyles on land that no one else cared much about (e.g. in the far north of northern Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec or the NWT)? Are those groups better off than those that were put on reserves in southern Canada?

If we're going to assert causal relationships as you are doing, then we should be able to make hypotheses and predictions of the type I'm suggesting and test the strength of the hypotheses by looking at actual data. What native groups were most/least affected by these hypothesized causal factors? All other things being equal, are those groups the worst off/best off today? If not, or if the correlation is small or non-existent, maybe we need to adjust the hypothesis or consider other causal factors.
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