Toronto's suburban Asian Mall boom

[J. Will]

A huge gamble on Markham Asian mall

http://www.thestar.com/business/article/653446

Jun 19, 2009 04:30 AM
TONY WONG BUSINESS REPORTER

In the depths of the worst recession in decades, one of Canada's richest men is taking a $1 billion gamble on suburban Chinatown with plans for a massive mall and luxury hotel/condominium complex in the heart of Markham's shopping district.

Plans for the Remington Centre, an 800,000 square-foot Chinese-themed mall adjoining a 20-storey hotel and condo tower, are expected to be announced by Toronto developer Rudy Bratty's Remington Group at a news conference today.

"We are really proud of this – we believe it will be the pre-eminent centre in North America," the 77-year-old Bratty said in an interview.

Bratty, ranked 58th on Canada's wealth list by Canadian Business magazine with a personal net worth of almost $1 billion, intends to knock down his existing 325,000 square foot Market Village mall at the corner of Kennedy Rd. and Steeles Ave., further shifting the centre of Toronto's Chinatown to the suburbs. The area is already home to three other large Chinese-themed malls.

Bratty's timing for a GTA project of this scale is all the more audacious considering most other retail and commercial builders have closed up shop as the weak economy and job losses sap consumer confidence.

"We're certainly taking a chance, particularly in today's market, and I don't kid myself that the credit markets have changed, but I think we're offering something different than what's out there," says the lawyer turned developer.

First, he'll have to contend with a banking sector that, having taken massive writedowns in recent months, is now famously cautious about lending money for any kind of development – even when the borrower happens to be Bratty.

John O'Bryan, vice-chair of broker CB Richard Ellis, says many large-scale commercial projects in Toronto are drying up because of lack of funding.

"Bankers are much more conservative and the biggest impediment (for builders) is financing," says O'Bryan.

But Bratty insists financing won't be a problem.

"The bankers know what we're planning, but we haven't worked out the details," he says.

Groundbreaking on the Markham project is likely 18 months to two years away.

Key to the business plan is that, unlike a traditional mall where the developer is the landlord, Bratty intends to sell the mall spaces, either to the retailers occupying the premises or outside investors – a structure commonly used in Asia to spread the ownership risk.

However, it's not quite a done deal yet. Bratty intends to start selling units this summer, but first he needs site-plan approval from the Town of Markham for phase one, while phase two will require rezoning for residential use.

And even if he meets sales targets and satisfies his bankers, he will have to contend with major competition from other malls, including an expansion by veteran developer Sheldon Esbin's Splendid China Tower across the street on the Scarborough side of Steeles Ave.

Esbin plans to break ground this summer, on a site formerly used by a Canadian Tire store, to expand his mall from 100,000 to 300,000 square feet.

"I think Remington will do a great job. They're well financed and they're smart business people," says Esbin. "This area will be centre ice for the Chinese community."

Not far down the road at Middlefield and Steeles Ave., developer Terry Yiu is also building a new mall, the 435,000 square foot Landmark, billed as the next largest Asian mall in North America.

That scale of development is unprecedented in North America for Asian malls, and marks the first wave of massive building – some analysts say overbuilding – in more than a decade, in pace with Chinese migration first to Scarborough, then north to Markham and Richmond Hill.

"Can you have too many Chinese malls? Sure, but you can apply that argument to just about anything," says Bratty. "I'm confident this will work."

Bratty cites research by Remington that says 42 per cent of new immigrants from China come to the Toronto area, where there are already more than 430,000 of Chinese descent based on the 2001 census. By 2017 that number is forecast to be 735,000 residents.

Another finding is that Chinese consumers tend to be loyal, with almost half spending their dollars almost exclusively in Chinese-owned businesses.

Having all those malls close together creates a complementary usage that promotes more destination and tourist shopping, argues Bratty, who sees his mall becoming an "international draw."

"We looked at other malls across Canada and we learned from them and we wanted to do better," says Bratty.

Plans for the new mall are decidedly more upscale than the sometimes junky Asian retail condos that have dominated the Markham area. Some inspiration undoubtedly has come from Vancouver's Aberdeen Centre, a high-end condo and retail complex whose stores wouldn't look out of place in Yorkville.

But Bratty promises his mall will be more luxurious still, with thoughtful touches. Tour bus drivers bringing guests to the mall will be looked after, for example, courtesy of a private rest area where they can nap and shower, he says.

The new mall will be designed by Kohn Architects and will also have a vast outdoor public space with fountains – envisioned as a Times Square for the Asian-Canadian market.

Beside Bratty's Market Village complex is the 300,000 square foot Pacific Mall, perhaps more famous as a shopping destination for the latest pirated DVDs.

While the Pacific Mall looks like a giant glass greenhouse, the existing Market Village looks like it was lifted from the set of Anne of Green Gables, arising from Bratty's goal at the time to fit his development into the farming roots of old Markham. The new mall, which will be rebranded the Remington Centre, will be connected to the Pacific Mall by a bridge.

So far, Markham council has been supportive of the scheme, although traffic congestion remains an issue.

Markham Councillor Alex Chiu says he likes the project, believing it would "bring a lot of tourism to Markham."

However, he acknowledges "traffic is always a concern in that area" and he has yet to see a traffic report by Remington's consultants.





Here's the existing Pacific Mall referenced in the article:

http://www.pacificmalltoronto.com/

[sopas ej]

Hehe Asian malls--- something that's existed in southern California for decades now.

Has there only recently (within the last 10-20 years) been a large influx of Asians into the Toronto area?

[PFloyd]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Hehe Asian malls--- something that's existed in southern California for decades now.

Has there only recently (within the last 10-20 years) been a large influx of Asians into the Toronto area?

Hehe... Let me enlighten you; no...Chinese immigration to Toronto dates back to 1878, with a great increase in the 1947 to 1960 years. Nowdays it is just huge. Here is some reading to help you out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinatown,_Toronto

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Hehe Asian malls--- something that's existed in southern California for decades now.

Has there only recently (within the last 10-20 years) been a large influx of Asians into the Toronto area?

No, we've had Asian malls for decades too. The "news" is that there are two new, large indoor Asian malls to be built, and a third Asian mall to be tripled in size in the same vicinity (a short stretch of Steeles Avenue) of three existing large Asian malls (one of which already has 400 stores). There are many more Asian strip malls in the area (and across the region for that matter), this is strictly indoor malls.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by PFloyd

Hehe... Let me enlighten you; no...Chinese immigration to Toronto dates back to 1878, with a great increase in the 1947 to 1960 years. Nowdays it is just huge. Here is some reading to help you out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinatown,_Toronto

Thanks for sharing.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by J. Will

No, we've had Asian malls for decades too. The "news" is that there are two new, large indoor Asian malls to be built, and a third Asian mall to be tripled in size in the same vicinity (a short stretch of Steeles Avenue) of three existing large Asian malls (one of which already has 400 stores). There are many more Asian strip malls in the area (and across the region for that matter), this is strictly indoor malls.

I see. Yeah, we have plenty of indoor Asian malls here too, many of which I avoid because some of them can be highly annoying, hence my "hehe."

The Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese communities--- all of them have their huge indoor malls. And an old dead-mall in the Eagle Rock neghborhood of LA has within this decade become a de facto "Filipino mall" because many of the businesses that have opened there are full of Filipino chains and of course as a result are highly patronized by Filipinos. There's a mall in the City of San Gabriel, near me, that has a huge 2-level Chinese outdoor mall (this is SoCal, after all). I refer to it as the "Great Mall of China." They have (or had, I haven't been there in a while) a great Chinese Islamic restaurant there, with a "wall of fame" of the signatures of many different Chinese celebrities/entertainers who've visited.

The first indoor "Asian mall" I ever visited was the Asia Garden Mall in Little Saigon, which obviously is all Vietnamese. I remember all the rice-rockets in the parking lot! And the very good phở and bánh mì. Yum!

[Jasonhouse]

Fascinating.

I don't think we have anything like this in Tampa, for any ethnicity. (at least not beyond like a 10-20k sqft mini-strip mall). We get parts of town where single businesses will tend to locate, but it's all rag-tag and not organized at all.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Jasonhouse

Fascinating.

I don't think we have anything like this in Tampa, for any ethnicity. (at least not beyond like a 10-20k sqft mini-strip mall). We get parts of town where single businesses will tend to locate, but it's all rag-tag and not organized at all.

Be happy you don't have them. What makes cities interesting are all the unique areas including the little ethnic neighbourhoods you can stroll down. Toronto is sadly losing that to these malls and it is a shame.

The Asian Malls in Toronto to be honest are nothing special, and are just like giant warehouses. They do not look like regular malls. Instead they are just giant warehouses with little cells for each store that is like 10 feet wide.

I live 10 minutes from this Pacific Mall complexe where the new mall will be going in, and I never go there. If I want Asian culture I go down to "chinatown". Asian malls don't have the buzz of the street, and they never will.
Half that Pacific Mall is pirate DVD stores anyway.
This is also not the only mall going up. Just down the road at Markham Road, the largest South East Asian mall is being built.
Scarborough is getting all the mega ethnic malls(that asian mall in the article is basically in Scarborough. Its only across the road in Markham).

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Be happy you don't have them. What makes cities interesting are all the unique areas including the little ethnic neighbourhoods you can stroll down. Toronto is sadly losing that to these malls and it is a shame.

The Asian Malls in Toronto to be honest are nothing special, and are just like giant warehouses. They do not look like regular malls. Instead they are just giant warehouses with little cells for each store that is like 10 feet wide.

I live 10 minutes from this Pacific Mall complexe where the new mall will be going in, and I never go there. If I want Asian culture I go down to "chinatown". Asian malls don't have the buzz of the street, and they never will.
Half that Pacific Mall is pirate DVD stores anyway.
This is also not the only mall going up. Just down the road at Markham Road, the largest South East Asian mall is being built.
Scarborough is getting all the mega ethnic malls(that asian mall in the article is basically in Scarborough. Its only across the road in Markham).

Going by what you said, I assume, then, that Toronto's Chinatown has more than just Chinese businesses, being that you said that if you wanted to experience "Asian" culture, you go to Chinatown?

I beg to differ about your view; at least here in the Los Angeles area, just because an ethnic group opens up a mall doesn't mean that it's somehow not authentically "their culture." In fact in many ways it's actually more true to their culture; malls are just an evolution of a type of business setting. The Chinatown in Los Angeles is basically just a romanticized relic of their ghettoized past. Yes, there are Chinese businesses there, but to get a real flavor for their culture, you go into the suburban San Gabriel Valley communities of Monterey Park, Alhambra, San Gabriel, Rosemead, Rowland Heights, Hacienda Heights... those have become the new "Chinatowns" of Los Angeles, and they are real, WORKING "Chinatowns" that ethnic Chinese immigrants actually go to, they actually shop, conduct business, eat and of course many live, in these communities, NOT in the traditional LA Chinatown. For real, regional authentic Chinese cuisine, for example, you go to these San Gabriel Valley communities, NOT LA's Chinatown. Like I mentioned in my previous post, you can actually get Chinese Islamic cuisine in the San Gabriel Valley, as well as Taiwanese dumplings, REAL tea shops, stinky tofu, etc. You don't see "Chop Suey" and "Egg Foo Yung" on the menus in THESE restaurants. That big outdoor 2-level mall in San Gabriel I mentioned is actually anchored by an Asian department store called Focus, so it's an actual regional shopping mall, not a rinky-dink strip mall, and many Chinese people come from all over to this mall. To top that off, across the street is a huge Hilton Hotel that many Chinese visitors stay at; in fact many Chinese visitors staying in other parts of Los Angeles take tour bus excursions to this San Gabriel mall (incidentally called San Gabriel Square). And I'm not saying that Chinese people don't live in LA's traditional Chinatown anymore, there still are Chinese people who live there, but many more live in the San Gabriel Valley and many more immigrants have settled in the San Gabriel Valley. And Chinatown does have some authentic Chinese restaurants, but not to the extent and variety that the SGV has.

A Chinese business doesn't have to be in a crowded, small storefront with hanging tassled lanterns and birdcages in front to be authentic; I'm sure the Chinese people even in China have moved beyond that.

[TorancisOMP]

Now, we need to have some Asian Malls here in Chicago. I've been to Toronto and man those malls are way cool. I forgot the name but there is a newer one right across the street from Pacific Mall I think.

Well the only thing close to that is the Chicago Chinatown Eastern Tower which will be completed by 2012-2013

Check my older post. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...er#post4165195

[miketoronto]

I did not say they are not authentic. I just said I like ethnic areas on streets more. They have more flavour and style to them.

Going to those Asian malls is like walking through a warehouse.

I am sorry and you don't have to think the same way, but my view is that those malls just are not as exciting as the streetfront ethnic areas they are killing and replacing.

There is something about strolling on a busy street, and going into side streets, etc. You don't get that in a corporate managed mall.

If that is where all the asian business are going, fine its not like we can stop it. But I find it bland to be honest. It just is not the same as Spadina Ave.

Anyway back to the Asian malls, which is what this thread is about.

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Be happy you don't have them. What makes cities interesting are all the unique areas including the little ethnic neighbourhoods you can stroll down. Toronto is sadly losing that to these malls and it is a shame.

The Asian Malls in Toronto to be honest are nothing special, and are just like giant warehouses. They do not look like regular malls. Instead they are just giant warehouses with little cells for each store that is like 10 feet wide.

I live 10 minutes from this Pacific Mall complexe where the new mall will be going in, and I never go there. If I want Asian culture I go down to "chinatown". Asian malls don't have the buzz of the street, and they never will.
Half that Pacific Mall is pirate DVD stores anyway.
This is also not the only mall going up. Just down the road at Markham Road, the largest South East Asian mall is being built.
Scarborough is getting all the mega ethnic malls(that asian mall in the article is basically in Scarborough. Its only across the road in Markham).

You really do tend to exaggerate mike. Have you walked the length of Chinatown lately? Even in this recession, there are almost no retail vacancies. I can't speak for Chinatown East since I never go there, but Chinatown (on the street at least - not sure about Chinatown Centre mall) is almost 100% occupied.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I am sorry and you don't have to think the same way, but my view is that those malls just are not as exciting as the streetfront ethnic areas they are killing and replacing.
....
If that is where all the asian business are going, fine its not like we can stop it. But I find it bland to be honest. It just is not the same as Spadina Ave.

What a relief one does not have to think the same way as you. Thanks for that.

Regardless of what we on this forum generally think about suburban malls, as someone who lived and travelled in Asia for seven years I can assure you, Mike, that the best Chinese food and the most authentic Asian "experience" are in Pacific Mall and that general part of the GTA. As much as I really love Spadina and Dundas, they don't hold a candle to the suburban Asian areas.

You want to feel kinda like you're walking around Hong Kong? Go to Pacific Mall. I know you'll find it hard to believe, but here's a fact: Spadina bears just about zero resemblance to anything in Hong Kong whatsoever, whereas once you've completed the 30-minute process of competing for a parking space at Pacific Mall and actually go through the front doors, you're more or less magically transported to the "Fragrant Harbour."

[Wheelingman04]

A mall is a mall. They all suck!