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  #1  
Old 08-10-2009, 03:36 PM
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HooverDam HooverDam is online now
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Another silly idea of mine: 3rd Street Ped. Mall


****warning: long post ahead!****

So in the Phoenix Development News thread I mentioned hoping the Democratic Convention comes here in 2012 which got me looking at pictures of Denvers convention. I saw dozens of pictures of their 16th Street Mall and was quite impressed. I then talked to a few buddies of mine who live in Portland about the Portland Transit Mall which also seems cool. So being a jealous type I thought- we need something like that here!

Obviously Phoenix is hyper car oriented and I think having one street that was for pedestrians would be quite welcome. Downtown is starting to have a lot going for it but like we've bemoaned before everything is very sporadically spread out. Looking at the map I realized 3rd Street seems like an ideal place for a Pedestrian Mall because it would tie together Roosevelt Row/the arts area, the Central Business District and the Convention Center, ASU downtown and the future Jackson Street Entertainment district.

I imagine you could do the project in two phases, first from Jackson Street to Fillmore, then from Fillmore to Hance Park. What it would entail is closing the street off to all motorized traffic except for circulator buses (one lane, each direction). The sidewalks would be widened (using permeable pavers of course) and large planter strips could replace former traffic lanes. My thinking is a big investment in infrastructure like this from the City would greatly entice developers to build and infill along it. By doing the Northern phase second you would give potential developers time to buy up those lots and make plans so that projects were either under construction or shovel ready at the appropriate time.

So going from South to North, here's my idea:

Jackson St to Jefferson St: We already know the Jackson St group wants to wrap the garage in someway and thats excellent. The mall would eliminate garage access for cars along 3rd street but theres still access along Jackson and 4th St/Dbacks Way, so it shouldn't be too big of an issue.

Since this would be the south terminus of the Mall there should be some sort of landmark. Perhaps a fountain or sizable piece of public art in a plaza. Perhaps Paul Coze's terrific Phoenix sculpture could be rehabbed, put back on its pedestal, have its fire feature reinstalled and placed there- such a prominent local artist deserves to have his work somewhere cooler than in front of strip center.

The mall in this area should be carefully designed to feel connected to the Suns Bud Light Paseo as well as the D'backs plaza. Use of common trees, signage, etc. would help. A lot of signage in this area about the sports teams seems sensible.

Finally, hopefully the amenity of the Mall and the economy eventually recovering would entice Sarver & Co to bring back their plans for the W this time without touching the Sun Merc building.

Jefferson to Washington: This would be a tricky section since the old Civic Plaza is so poorly designed from a pedestrian/urbanity point of view. Hopefully in the future it would be demolish and replaced with something along the lines of the Convention Center West Building on the North half of the block. This would allow for the south half of the block to be redeveloped into something else, perhaps an office tower or hotel but of course with retail facing the 3rd St Mall and Jefferson.

In the short term, the driveway that fronts 3rd street for the C.C. South building could be turned into a grassy area.

Then there's the big Colliers pad, hopefully the creation of the mall would encourage Colliers to get off their asses and plop a Marriott there. Though if a hotel were put there it would have to have its car entry area off of Jefferson and not 3rd. Theres already some existing potential for retail in the Colliers center facing 3rd street but its empty since 3rd street currently seems like a back alley. See here:


Obviously with the LRT stops on Washington and Jefferson on either side of 3rd street signage and the design would have to work to tie those in.

Washington to Monroe: This block always seems to be closed off for Convention Center stuff anyway, may as well make it permanent! During the LRT/CC opening we saw it already works well as is as a pedestrian mall and with the improvements it would obviously be much better:


The driveway for the North building along 3rd street could perhaps be replaced with a turn in along Washington (eliminating some of that large planter) if its absolutely necessary. The current driveway could be replaced with perhaps some semi permanent structures like a large newspaper stand, an 'Ambassadors' kiosk/hut and the like. Unfortunately as we all know the CC food court is inward facing but it does seem like there are a few places in the CC that could be rented out for retail:


Monroe to Van Buren: This block bounded by St Marys and the Herber currently offers nothing in the way of street facing, pedestrian oriented development. However theres a parking lot on the North side of the St Marys block that could be developed. Furthermore we heard in the last economic upswing of some talk about the Herbgers tree garden on its East side being developed so that idea could be rekindled. Losing the trees shouldn't bee too much of a concern as they'd be replaced many times over with the mall (those very trees could just be replanted).

Van Buren to Fillmore: This block would make or break the project I'd guess. Before undertaking the project the City would have to make sure the owners of the AZ Center who are wanting to rehab it would completely reorient it to 3rd street. It would probably mean demolishing the current Western half of the Az Center and turn into apartments or condos above retail.

The AMC could be downsized from 24 screens to maybe 16 or so and have its entrance facing Taylor Street. This reorientation would be key to give the small Taylor street mall a strong Eastern terminus and tie it into the 3rd Street Mall. With the remaining space no longer being used for theaters perhaps something like a Target or some other sort of department store would have room to move in and finally give downtown retail that anchor tenant it needs.

The grey concrete garage at 3rd/Taylor would need to be wrapped in retail on the first level. Sheraton traffic would have to be restricted to only entering off of 2nd street, but they can deal.

Fillmore to McKinley: This 2 block stretch is currently a mess, but Alta Lofts are helping out. Alta won't have retail facing 3rd Street, but they do have apartments with porches facing 3rd so its permeable in a way:


Hopefully the announcement of the Mall project would entice the owners of the very suburban "Met" apartments to raze them and put something more pedestrian and higher density there. Additionally it would be nice to see Pierce Street punch through again since small blocks are of course a good thing.

Somewhere along the length of the Mall I feel like a traditional plaza/square would be necessary to provide relief from the linear nature of it. The current empty lot on the NE corner of Pierce/3rd might be a good candidate. It was once slated for the always dubious seeming Cosmo Towers and perhaps the city could either acquire it or work with the owners to create a Square. It would have to have double sided retail along 4th St and have retail facing it along the North half of the lot. Alta Lofts already has potential retail space facing it:


McKinley to Garfield: This block already has the Roosevelt, Bunky Boutique, Red Dogg Gallery and Holgas on it, so its doing pretty well. The Mall would prevent people from parking directly in front of those places but I think most people already walk to them and street parking would remain available on McKinely and Garfield, so no issue there.

The current empty lot on the East side of the street would have to be developed into something of pretty good density (8+ stories) in order to give this area the needed amount of pedestrian life. Hopefully the uses of the street fronting retail would compliment the existing stuff and put people on the streets at hours where they aren't already there. Maybe another bar/nightlife type place would be good to compliment the Roosevelt.

Garfield to Roosevelt: This is currently one of the biggest stretches of moonscapes in downtown- but hey that means opportunity! Downtown still needs a more affordable grocery option. Something like a Fresh & Easy on one of these blocks below (non luxury) apartments would be ideal.

I've seen it proposed in other places, but the intersection of 3rd/4th and Roosevelt should be turned into a roundabout. 4th St could be converted to two way traffic to help make up for the loss of lanes along 3rd street. The roundabout would create a more suitable entry point to downtown and could have some sort of large public art in the center of it (surrounded by a xeriscaped garden).

Roosevelt to Hance Park: The existing structures would make this area tricky to turn into something walkable. Hopefully the city could work with the Scientology folks to replace their awful surface lot with something... anything!

3rd street in this area is extremely wide which is somewhat understandable since there's an I-10 exit/entrance, however since its just an HOV ramp, 3rd still seems unnecessarily wide. You could keep say 3 lanes on the East side of the street and plant a large hedgerow (like you see on Rural creating a barrier for ASUs athletic facilities between Rio Salado and University) to create a visual and sound barrier from the traffic.

Unfortunately the best places for infill and development are on the lots on the East side of the street and there's no way the city is going to completely shut down 3rd street due to the I-10. Hopefully those lots could still be developed and people could cross at Moreland & Portland.

The project could terminate where the parking lot on the East side of Hance Park is. That lot should be done away with (perhaps just leaving a small place for shuttles to turn around) and the park expanded. The Phoenix Center buildings need some rehab and could actually see increased some use if the Mall project was successful. This structure in particular could be used as a theater (I think it may already be, but it looks so shitty you'd never know):


Anyway I know the last thing the city wants to do in this economy is think of another big project, but its probably best to start thinking of things like this now anyway so they could be proposed in the next upswing. A project like this could be a "Centennial Project" as well and hopefully have at least the first phase complete by 2012. I think in order for it to be successful the city would also have to work on at least improving the planter strips for 2 blocks in each direction of the intersecting streets so that the Mall doesn't feel like a nice strip in a sea of rundown crap.

Theres been a lot of talk about how Downtown is out of the big project/magic bullet business but I think something like this could be the last thing that ties the whole package together. It would connect the future Jackson St district, cultural and sports facilities (USAC, Symphony Hall, Herberger, etc), the Convention Center, hotels, ASU downtown, office buildings and the arts area which would hopefully infill with a lot more residential. It would give downtown the grand entry point it clearly needs and give it a lot more green space and heat island relief. It could really be the spinal cord of the "Connected Oasis" idea that the Urban Form project proposed.

So anyhow, is this idea completely retarded? Partially retarded? According to Wikipedia there's not many places like this in the US (Denver, Portland, Long Beach, Minneapolis and Santa Clara have them) and it would give us something thats fairly unique but not so outside of the box as to be unproven and too 'unsafe' for our conservative city.

EDIT: Here are some pictures of Denvers 16th St mall to give you an idea of how cool it can look:





Last edited by HooverDam : 08-10-2009 at 03:58 PM.
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  #2  
Old 08-10-2009, 04:10 PM
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I think the biggest drawback or roadblock is the fact that there is almost zero retail along that corridor. Seems like for a pedestrian mall to work you need a lot of closely packed retail stores to give people something to walk to/from. It seems like there are loooong areas along 3rd street that have no hope for a retail location, and as walkable as they may look, I don't know if just being walkable is enough to make a pedestrian mall work. Also, retaurants with outdoor cafe seating seems like it would also be necessary.

Seems like the only place that could possibly work as a pedestrian mall is Mill Ave.


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  #3  
Old 08-10-2009, 04:35 PM
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^While thats true right now my whole point was something like this would spur on new development. Phoenix isn't in the position of other cities where we already have huge amounts of building stocks ready to be transformed into cafes. Because of 4 decades of retarded decisions we've got to 'prime the pump' more here to some degree.

If the AZ Center was redesigned that would give you a good bit of street fronting retail and a lot of the current buildings while they may not have street fronting retail have lots of people going in and out of them (USAC, Convention Center, Sheraton, ASU, etc).

Here's a quick diagram showing potential places for street fronting retail directly along the corridor:

And thats without assuming the old Convention Center would eventually be replaced or the Met would be knocked down, etc. and doesn't include the small amount of current stuff like the District, Roosevelt Tavern and Bunky.


If all we ever do is look at what Downtown has currently we might as well say "fuck it" and move. Our collective vision is so small, so uninspired and so directionless its no wonder our downtown is the same. Im not saying we have to go be crazy like Mr Garrido or anything but something like this seems doable to me. It seems to me we (people of this city in general) need to change our attitude from "idea A can't work because of X" to "lets make Idea A work."


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  #4  
Old 08-10-2009, 04:36 PM
glynnjamin glynnjamin is offline
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I can agree with Monroe to Jackson being a PedMall but you can't get rid of the only viable HOV access into and out of downtown on the east side. No reason to punish those who are responsible with their commuting (buses as well as car poolers). 3rd St is a vital street that needs to exist at least down to Van Buren. If you want to run a PedMall, do it from VanB to Jackson. Or, better yet, make it 1st St.

It already has a stairwell down to the park up at the north end. Then you consider that restaurants are already starting to line up along it. You'd have places like Matts and the Sens/PastaBar/Turf block on one side and the public market on the other side. Cronkite and Taylor place (as well as the other ASU buildings) help create solid foot traffic that already makes the Fillmore/1st St interchange a nightmare. You already have housing along this row and the potential for a much more "local" experience. Run it down to Polk and have it curve west so that it terminates at the Civic Space. From Park to Park - an idea we've explored many times before. Removing cars from 1st St and from one block of Polk would have little impact on the traffic flow of downtown and would help move people from where they already are (Matts, Market, ASU) to where they aren't (DeckPark) and would give that stretch some much needed development help.


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Old 08-10-2009, 04:40 PM
glynnjamin glynnjamin is offline
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Also, what's with the push to chop the AMC in half? It is fine the way it is. Sure it is not always packed but it is nice having a theater that can show movies for longer than the first two weeks. They make their money after week 4 so it only benefits them to have more screens. When ASU is in session and there is a convention or a game downtown, the AMC is very busy. Once people move downtown, a 14 screen theater would be way too small. Would I like to see them show more indie movies? Yes, of course. Would I like to see AZCenter wrap some retail around the outside of the AMC structure? Of course. They do not need to re-orient their entrance though. It is currently shaded and protected from the weather making it a much more pleasant experience than I can say for any Harkins I've ever been to. Also, it is the anchor of the AZ Center now. If people don't go inside to see a movie, they won't see the shops and restaurants.


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  #6  
Old 08-10-2009, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glynnjamin View Post
Also, what's with the push to chop the AMC in half? It is fine the way it is. Sure it is not always packed but it is nice having a theater that can show movies for longer than the first two weeks. They make their money after week 4 so it only benefits them to have more screens. When ASU is in session and there is a convention or a game downtown, the AMC is very busy. Once people move downtown, a 14 screen theater would be way too small. Would I like to see them show more indie movies? Yes, of course. Would I like to see AZCenter wrap some retail around the outside of the AMC structure? Of course. They do not need to re-orient their entrance though. It is currently shaded and protected from the weather making it a much more pleasant experience than I can say for any Harkins I've ever been to. Also, it is the anchor of the AZ Center now. If people don't go inside to see a movie, they won't see the shops and restaurants.
Wow, I (obviously) couldn't disagree with this post more strongly. That AMC is a graveyard. I try to go there as often as possible when I can so that afterwards I can support other downtown businesses, I haven't seen that place busy since the mid 90s. Also its not as if them having fewer screens is some sort of inhibitor to how long films stay, Id guess movies stay at the AMC AZ Center about as long as they do anywhere else, they may just show them on more screens or screen a few more crappy movies that no one wants anyway. Also, if/when Jackson St happens itll likely have an Indie cinema as part of it.

The whole idea of a 24 screen theater is an out of date trend that was popular in the 90s. If you look at whats being built now its usually in the 16 theater per cineplex range (i.e. Tempe Marketplace is 16, Scottsdale 101 is 14, Desert Ridge is 18).

Further, why wouldn't an entrance facing Taylor be able to be shaded as well? Just because it would be facing west does not mean it would be impossible to shade it (after all the current entrance faces South, the other 'hot' direction). The fact that Taylor needs a strong visual terminus on its East end is a basic tenant of good urban design. Right now if you look down Taylor from the park you see a fucking tan wall, very unappealing.

Your point about people not going inside the AZ Center is entirely irrelevant. If the center was reoriented towards 3rd street thats where the shops would be! You wouldn't need to go 'inside' of it. The places currently occupying the Eastern building (fronting the garden) could be turned into offices. Or if you designed the western building properly you could still have entrances to the interior.

Again, try to see above what's currently in existence. First Street might be another viable alternative to a North-South ped. mall downtown, though it lacks the direct connection to things like the LRT Stations, the Bud Light paseo and the cultural institutions like the Herberger and Symphony Hall thus why I like 3rd better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glynnjamin View Post
I can agree with Monroe to Jackson being a PedMall but you can't get rid of the only viable HOV access into and out of downtown on the east side.
Sorry this must've been unclear but Im not advocating getting rid of HOV entrance/exit. Not quite sure how you gleaned that, I was saying the opposite...that I would keep them, but just narrow 3rd slightly.

EDIT: Also the problem with the 'park to park' idea is that it doesn't connect to Jackson street or the main core of downtown at all. All you've done is connect ASU & Deck park. The main arts district is further East, the CBD is further south, and all the potential of Jackson St (which I know you loath) is further south. So you haven't done as much good it seems to me.

Finally I think we get too hung up on this board and in circles supporting downtown in general on boutique type stores. While Im all for them, the Denver Mall has places like Johnny Rockets, Starbucks, a Rock Bottom, Quiznos, etc. and its wonderfully successful. If you listen to some downtown supporters you'd think what we need is nothing but 100% boutiques (not saying thats what you're advocating, it just frustrates me in general). We could certainly use more but there's nothing wrong with having a mix as well, its not like downtown has nearly enough of either. We certainly need some big corporate department type stores downtown, after all thats why most people used to come downtown on non work related trips anyway, to go to Goldwaters, Diamonds, etc.



Last edited by HooverDam : 08-10-2009 at 05:07 PM.
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  #7  
Old 08-10-2009, 05:13 PM
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Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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Hoover, Definitely like the idea of a pedestrian mall in downtown Phoenix, but I agree with PHX31 that 3rd St. has many obstacles before that would become successful. Now that 3rd st. has two way traffic (part of it, anyways) I've wondered why 5th St. which carries very little traffic has to be a 3 laned one way street?! I'd like to see 5th St. narrowed and become two ways.

I always thought that 1st St. (between VB and Hance Park) would be perfect because it already has restaurants (Turf, Pasta Room) it is super wide with very low vehicle traffic, meaning it could easily be narrowed and landscaped, doesn't have a freeway connection, so it would not have an impact on downtown mobility if it were converted to pedestrian only, plenty of empty lots to build low-rise retail with high-rise residential potential, connects to ASU/Taylor Place pedestrian mall, connects to the new Civic Space Park and Central Station, AZ Center access via Taylor, office space connectivity with OCPE.

What do you think about a 1st St. pedestrian mall?


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Old 08-10-2009, 06:43 PM
glynnjamin glynnjamin is offline
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Well it would stand to reason that if you were to be running a PedMall up 3rd and closing it off to traffic then traffic would have to be diverted east to 7th or west to 1st Ave. That means you'll have a lot of cars getting off the freeway and then trying to turn. Have you ever tried to use the 3rd St entrance into downtown during 1st Fridays? It is a nightmare. Turning traffic always has to yield to pedestrians which means you'll have significant backups between Roosevelt and the HOV exit. Also, the benefits of 3rd St HOV are to get you quickly into the core of downtown. If you have to get off the freeway and make a right, a left, and another left (sitting through as many as 7 lights) to get back to 3rd St & Van Buren - WHAT'S THE POINT?

As far as JSED, it WAS a good idea which has floundered and won't turn into much of anything for another 10 years - but you already knew that. Why are why creating a PedMall along a highly developed stretch that is full of traffic? I don't think connecting to JSED is necessary considering it is already near LRT, the ballpark, and arena. The PedMall should be something UNIQUE that encourages people to go BEYOND the areas that they would normally go. 1st Street is so ignored that it would substantially benefit from a greenscaped, shaded, dense, and walkable area that encouraged both development along an empty stretch and highlighted important structures like ASU and the market. Finally, if you curved the mall down Polk, it would connect to Central Station via the Civic Space Park.

Finally, the AMC downtown currently features 21 movies on 24 screens. They are able to show 4 movies that give them a 90% box office take because of those extra screens. You wanna see Drag Me To Hell, Star Trek, Pelham 123? AZ Center and Deer Valley 30 are pretty much the only place in town to do it because they are big enough to support them. Also, having the "extra" screens affords them the ability to show movies that aren't in the mainstream. I've seen El Orfanato, Milk, and a few other limited release movies there. Can't get that at Christown 14. Besides the economics that favor larger theaters, the orientation is fine. Like I said, I would be in favor of removing the landscaping on the West side and wrapping the building in retail but you still need to get people into the back of the place from the street. Uno, 1130, and Hurry4Curry are not going to benefit in any way from moving the entrance of the AMC. And no, the West side is not shadeable as long as Taylor feeds into it. It creates an open coridor for the sun. I walk down it almost daily. The only escape from the sun from 10am-7pm is once you are inside AZCenter or over by the Sheraton.


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  #9  
Old 08-11-2009, 11:10 PM
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I don't mean to completely dis this idea but it only makes sense to close streets and turn them into pedestrian malls only after the critical mass of retail and pedestrians have arrived. A number of smaller cities have tried introducing pedestrian malls to encourage pedestrian growth and the opposite occurs--struggling businesses only become further isolated. Googling "pedestrian malls revert" shows a couple that have tried this to only go back to normal traffic.

Making 5th/4th two way would be a nice change of pace, and improving the intersection of 3rd/5th and Roosevelt is a long, long time coming. Somebody's proposed this already, maybe affiliated with Urban Form or ASU Design, and it looked *really* nice.


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Old 08-15-2009, 11:38 PM
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Of the 2 mentioned, i think i prefer 1st St. i think i have heard that the city (perhaps thru Central City Villg planning) has some kind of 'plan' for 1st st from McDowell to Van Buren? something has been discussed out there, tho i don't recall if it was ped. only.

Also, i recall that the city did have plans a long time ago to turn Adams St into a ped. mall thru DT. i think this was in the 80s.


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Old 08-16-2009, 12:18 PM
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If they ever do decide to build a pedestrian mall, I would hope that they would NOT plant any mesquite trees anywhere. Those have got to be the worst trees used in public spaces. They don't provide enough shade, their ratty in the winter time, they topple over easily because of the placement of drip emitters (not good in planters bc of this reason) etc...


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Old 09-16-2009, 03:16 AM
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Hey, this is my first post so I hope I didnt screw up. Im an architecture and sustainability major at ASU.... I worked on a project for the 3rd street and Roosevelt neighborhood last semester for a new urbanism class that I was taking. Thought you guys would like to take a look. There are no skyscrapers, just forward thinking urbanism. Something that in my opinion is more important to Phx than just the skyline.


existing aerial view (for lack of time and energy im not going to list all the project boundaries, but it is basically roosevelt to fillmore and 3rd to parts of 5th streets.


infill shown along new "urban path" that uses existing alleys. New development includes mixed use buildings, live work units, stores, skate park, bball court, urban homes, and a community center


skate park and urban pathway with addition of stores and live/work homes

We chose the area because of its uniqueness and the possibilities of connecting downtown ASU, the tgen and medical district, the Roosevelt arts district, and the LRT. I dont know how much you guys know about New Urbanism, but it is basically about connectivity, diversity, and walkable streets. We decided to use existing alleys to create an urban pathway that ran from the 3rd and 4th street "wishbone" and roosevelt to fillmore near downtown ASU. We decided that This neighborhood had the most capability to become diverse, with the ASU students, hipsters (artitsts), old folks at the westward ho, and middle aged people moving into the area (mckinley lofts, and the alta apts). The streets would need to be narrowed and shade would have to be installed through both architecture and trees. Street front retail as well as live work units would be incorporated throughout the project.




street facing urban homes, with small backyards. To accomodate open space there are inclusive parks along the "urban pathway" promoting families to move to the urban core

Because this was a group project I only did the design work for 80% of the project. Im not going to focus on the logistics of everything, its more about the ideas. The goal was to create a neighborhood that had character and functionality. With our calculations the neighborhood would recieve a LEED-ND gold rating.


former Canvas gallery turned into Farmers Market and store

My ideas though were to use as many of the existing buildings as possible, the closed down gallery canvas was turned into a farmers market and local store. The empty lot between a set of apts and the puppet theater on 3rd was going to be a skate park along the new urban pathway. A community center was built that would contain many street front stores catering to the largely diverse neighborhood. Urban homes, and live work units lined the urban pathway. Though spotty, the infill changed the look and feel of the neighborhood. We focused on many policy and design options in a 20 page paper we had to develop. I would hope one day to be able to work on projects like this, that will be built for the city of Phoenix. If i dont go crazy from all the hurdles and red tape first.




Let me know what yall think- Mitch


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  #13  
Old 09-16-2009, 03:30 AM
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not sure what the lure is for pedestrian malls.

http://www.emich.edu/public/geo/557b....pedmalls.html

there are many such examples. instead of pedestrian malls, i'd like to see narrowed streets (two way), with side street parking (to keep traffic from being too close to pedestrians). also, blocks need to be not too large (too much street between intersections, to prevent cars from reaching high speeds). something like this, on a large scale:

http://www.westerville.org/Portals/0...s/4thcrowd.jpg

beautiful streetscape, large sidewalks, and minimized, but still existent traffic exposure.


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Old 09-21-2009, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combusean View Post
I don't mean to completely dis this idea but it only makes sense to close streets and turn them into pedestrian malls only after the critical mass of retail and pedestrians have arrived. A number of smaller cities have tried introducing pedestrian malls to encourage pedestrian growth and the opposite occurs--struggling businesses only become further isolated. Googling "pedestrian malls revert" shows a couple that have tried this to only go back to normal traffic.

Making 5th/4th two way would be a nice change of pace, and improving the intersection of 3rd/5th and Roosevelt is a long, long time coming. Somebody's proposed this already, maybe affiliated with Urban Form or ASU Design, and it looked *really* nice.
Completely agree. For every success like the 16th Street Mall in Denver, I can think of an equal or greater number of failed experiments. In Providence, where I lived in the '80s, reopening the main Downtown street to car traffic was a big part of a successful Downtown renaissance. Pedestrian malls should be implemented only once a street becomes crowded -- not with the hope of making it crowded.


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Old 09-21-2009, 05:27 PM
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Vicelord John Vicelord John is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverbear View Post
Completely agree. For every success like the 16th Street Mall in Denver, I can think of an equal or greater number of failed experiments. In Providence, where I lived in the '80s, reopening the main Downtown street to car traffic was a big part of a successful Downtown renaissance. Pedestrian malls should be implemented only once a street becomes crowded -- not with the hope of making it crowded.
i.e. Mill Avenue or Scottsdale Road.


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