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  #461  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2011, 10:27 PM
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You could start out my explaining how Mayor Hance presided over the downhill decline of downtown and the historic neighborhoods in the late 70s and early 80s, while being a major cheerleader for the developer-über-alles pro-sprawl crowd. Put that on a plaque.
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  #462  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2012, 5:23 PM
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I wrote another Blooming Rock article, it touches on something we talked/argued about 4 years ago and of course is timely again: http://tinyurl.com/cm2sfyy
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  #463  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2012, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooverDam View Post
I wrote another Blooming Rock article, it touches on something we talked/argued about 4 years ago and of course is timely again: http://tinyurl.com/cm2sfyy
I love it. I have been talking about Phoenix hosting one for years.
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  #464  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2012, 11:18 PM
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Random thought:

I was at Crescent Ballroom the other night and when I left, I looked across the street at the roofless historic 1st Baptist Church and my mind began to think up possibilities for its re-use. I got to thinking, would it possibly make a good night club? I was trying to think of uses where building a new (super expensive) roof wouldn't really be necessary and I think that would work.

If memory serves the roofless portion of the Ice House has hosted club nights/raves before, so I guess it could work. If they added some kind of retractable shade sail, lots of fans and misters, it could be kind of cool I imagine. Maybe the old bell tower could even be converted to like VIP private rooms or whatever.

Is this a completely stupid idea?
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  #465  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2012, 12:16 AM
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I got bored during the ASU-Wazzu blowout so tinkered around with this:



50 year full build out of Metro Light Rail, Commuter Rail and Intercity rail, thoughts?

I also considered doing an "Orange" line N/S on Scottsdale Rd from Tempe to Scottsdale/101...but who knows if Scottsdale will ever get on board. I figured I was dreaming enough just having transit touch the West side of Downtown Scottsdale.

I also considered an E/W "White" route along Chandler/Williamsfield from Ahwatukee/the I-10 to PHX-Mesa Gateway.

The Central Ave "Rainbow" line would be accessible by most of the other lines. I don't have enough technical knowledge to know exactly how that would work so you wouldn't get train traffic jams along Central though.

In a super fantasy world, Central from Camelback to Jefferson becomes a subway with multiple lines in it so trains can go express or pass one another.

Last edited by HooverDam; Nov 18, 2012 at 4:22 AM.
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  #466  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2012, 12:40 AM
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Hoover, nice concept, however, Phoenix is not a hub and spoke city. No need to have every transit line converge on central Phoenix. I imagine 50 years from now, Phoenix will have clusters of employment zones that allow for high density, high-rise developments for both commercial and residential uses.

I'd say a N-S route along Scottsdale Rd will eventually happen, so I wouldn't rule it out today. Who knows what Scottsdale voters will approve 25 years from now.
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  #467  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2012, 4:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
Hoover, nice concept, however, Phoenix is not a hub and spoke city. No need to have every transit line converge on central Phoenix. I imagine 50 years from now, Phoenix will have clusters of employment zones that allow for high density, high-rise developments for both commercial and residential uses.
Well not every route I outlined here runs into Downtown. Silver, Red and Purple for instance all branch off from an uptown hub. Whereas Gold, Copper and Blue focus on Downtown.

If you did a Chandler/WilliamsField Rd line, that obviously wouldn't connect directly into Downtown or any part of Central PHX at all. You'd have to connect to the rest of the system via the Commuter rail that goes into Chandler.

The reason I went the way I did above is because it relies the least on the other municipalities, while still getting to almost all the major destinations one would want to connect to.

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't know how else you create a system that doesn't generally grow outward from Central PHX. Heck, even our freeway system largely converges on Central PHX.
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  #468  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2012, 7:18 AM
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Fun stuff.

I could honestly see a line up the 101 corridor from Chandler Blvd to FLW (or even ending at Via de Ventura or Talking Stick if the city won't play) in North Scottsdale before you'll ever see a Scottsdale Road line. It doesn't make sense from an urban standpoint, but I guarantee is cheaper and more likely than the idiots in Scottsdale letting their precious city be invaded by the train and all those poor brown people. Ideally though, that same DT Chandler / ASU Research Park / Rural / Scottsdale Rd / Airpark line would then turn west and tie in to your Desert Ridge line. Said line could also then easily tie in to your Williams Field line (hitting Santan area as another upcoming node).

The Scottsdale line would also make it much easier for East Valley residents to get to the Biltmore area without going all the way downtown, although maybe a 44th Street line from Washington to Camelback would work if Scottsdale continues to be stupid.

Now that I think about it, it occurs to me that all East Valley lines (including the Scottsdale N/S line) maybe should converge on DT Tempe, which is easily positioned as a large node in the system and could (and should) become the major transit hub for the East Valley.

You could then possibly make a case for a train station (a large one) just to the south of the Hayden Flour Mill? Certainly better than that ugly ass triangular parking lot. Either that or Ash & 5th?

Something like this (yeah right):


source
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  #469  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2012, 6:48 PM
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I can't tell you where to logically put it, but it seems like half the map has no commuter rail, i.e. there should be some sort of NE route.
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  #470  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2012, 5:24 AM
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Also further thoughts on Chandler Blvd/WilliamsField and Scottsdale Rd:

What about BRT? I know its an inferior mode, but especially in Scottsdale it seems more likely than LRT.

Also some kind of Skytrain or BRT or Modern Streetcar or something seems logical in a small loop starting in "Higley" at Higley Rd and Williamsfield, going East into ASU Poly and the Airport. Making stops at maybe 2 key ASU locations and whatever terminals. It would of course connect to the commuter rail station at Higley.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pbenjamin View Post
I can't tell you where to logically put it, but it seems like half the map has no commuter rail, i.e. there should be some sort of NE route.
Unfortunately, there's no rail corridor to the NE, so they likely won't get commuter rail. Thats why I made sure to put LRT going up that way, plus they'd continue to have express buses along the SR51.

I suppose you could do some kind of elevated commuter rail on the SR51, but then you're getting really expensive.

My commuter rail route shown there isn't any original thought. Thats MAGs alignment.
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  #471  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2012, 1:01 AM
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In the ValTrans proposal (1989) they had the Blue Line, traveling from South Phoenix, through downtown and the Central Avenue corridor, along Camelback Road, along 24th Street, Lincoln Drive, a brief express portion on the 51, 32nd Street, Shea Boulevard, Tatum Boulevard, and eventually serving Paradise Valley Mall and Mayo Clinic Phoenix.
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  #472  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2012, 3:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbenjamin View Post
In the ValTrans proposal (1989) they had the Blue Line, traveling from South Phoenix, through downtown and the Central Avenue corridor, along Camelback Road, along 24th Street, Lincoln Drive, a brief express portion on the 51, 32nd Street, Shea Boulevard, Tatum Boulevard, and eventually serving Paradise Valley Mall and Mayo Clinic Phoenix.
Do you know of any maps that exist of Valtrans? Im too young to remember it, btu Id be interested in seeing routes, what the trains were gonna look like, etc.
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  #473  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2012, 3:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooverDam View Post
Do you know of any maps that exist of Valtrans? Im too young to remember it, btu Id be interested in seeing routes, what the trains were gonna look like, etc.
There is a bit of info on this PDF and one picture:

http://www.friendsoftransit.org/Eric...esentation.pdf
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  #474  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2012, 5:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickw252 View Post
There is a bit of info on this PDF and one picture:

http://www.friendsoftransit.org/Eric...esentation.pdf
Thanks!

Here is an updated version of my map thats more to scale, has the 2 airports added in, and differentiates better between commuter and LRT:



And then here's a crazy version where Phoenicians suddenly fall head over heels for trains and there's lines everywhere:

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  #475  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2012, 5:18 PM
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Hoover, I think you could dream even BIGGER. 50 years ago Phoenix was a small desert city. Just imagine how much different it'll be 50 years in the future...obviously the metro region is going to go vertical in that time period in and around our established CBDs. Perhaps Phoenix will copy LA and build their own Century City.

I think the east valley, either DT Tempe or DT Mesa should be another hub for rail to converge. I could see multiple hub and spokes across the region. I could also see many miles of streetcar serving the areas in and around the dt's of chandler, Gilbert and Mesa. The East Valley is in a perfect physical region for massive rail expansion. It lies between the two major economic engines: sky harbor and Williams.
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  #476  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2012, 2:05 AM
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^Yah I think streetcar would fill in a lot of the gaps in my 2nd map. I started to add it, but the map got too busy looking and hard to read. But I agree Streetcar for places like Downtown Chandler and Gilbert, maybe connecting Tempe/Papago Park/Scottsdale, etc. would be necessary.
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  #477  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2012, 9:53 PM
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I think Phoenix is going to grow more slowly than what we have seen in the past 50 years. For one thing, most people wanting to move here can't because they can't sell their homes where they are at. For another thing, Phoenix is losing out on the creative class types, who will gravitate to more progressive places like Miami, San Francisco, Seattle, Atlanta, LA, Denver, Portland and San Diego. Arizona has a really poor image problem right now...we look like a bunch of raving redneck idiots who gleefully re-elected Sheriff Joe and want to run out all of the non-white people. It's the perception that counts, even if the reality is not quite as bad as that sounds.

In terms of new high rise construction, we really haven't seen that much in the last 40 years here, and I've been here for half of that time. Certainly there's been no new tower built here over 400 feet tall since the 1970s (and trust me, in the high rise area, 400 feet is nothing -- Dubai with less than half of the population of Phoenix has seven skyscrapers under construction right now over 600 feet tall). There's just no demand for high-rises here...many people moving here are from more rural, conservative states and they don't want to live "cooped up" on top of each other in a high rise. Developers here appear to be poorly capitalized and leery of taking risks like building tall often entails. We also lack the headquarters of major companies that may be inclined to build tall. We also have so few Fortune 500 HQs compared to most cities of our size. When smaller American cities like Hartford, CT (metro pop. 1 million), Des Moines, IA (650,000), Omaha, NE (700,000), and Mobile, AL (550,000) have taller buildings than Phoenix (pop. 4.5 million) has, you know there is something seriously fucked up about Phoenix when it comes to skyscrapers.

Our only hope with Phoenix is not in the realm of skyscrapers, for they have forsaken us. We can only hope that we can densify downtown with 2 to 10 story stuff and get rid of all of the dirt lots that predominate our downtown. There are great world cities that don't have a lot of massive supertalls to signify their worth and power - cities like Paris, San Diego and Boston to name a few. Phoenix could do better with just better planning for shade, pedestrian amenities, better transportation options and more infill. That is the hope for Phoenix.

My predictions for the future metro populations of Phoenix:

2010: 4.3 million (more or less the present population)
2020: 4.9 million
2030: 5.5 million
2040: 6.0 million
2050: 6.5 million

--don
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  #478  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2012, 7:49 AM
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Don,
Youre probably right that Phoenix will grow slower. It would be nearly impossible to maintain growth rates of the boom decades of a much smaller region. LA has slowed big time compared to its boom period, yet continues to transform. Phoenix area will still add a few million people in 50 years. To say that Phoenix will continue the trends of the past 50 years another 50 years is just short sighted. Global events and the global economy will influence AZ quite a bit (energy costs alone).

AZ has always had an image problem, but that hasn't stopped the growth in the past. Most people don't consider that when they move to AZ. Remember the controversy of MLK holiday in AZ 20 years ago? I don't believe that stopped the growth of the 90s. This isn't a new phenomenon rather it's consistent with AZ history. People in CA have already forgotten about 1070. You'd be surprised how many people don't give a shit about or have never heard of local AZ politics.

Even if there are zero 500ft+ buildings built ever again (let's be honest, it's kind of silly in a city like Phx or most other cities not constrained by natural features, hong kong/boston/NYC/sf) the CBDs could still become dense enough to support a great multi-modal train system. Phoenix could go verticle with 5-10 story row houses. Even LA doesn't need supertalls, there is just too much redevelopable land in the basin for this.

My point being, a lot can happen in 50 years! Just look how much things have changed since 1962 in maricopa county, just imagine what could happen by 2062.
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  #479  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2012, 12:53 AM
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I disagree that Arizona's politics have fallen off the radar. As a former arizona resident in the Bay Area, there are two things that people up here relate about Arizona to me all the time: that it's really hot, and that it's really racist. I think of everyone I've talked to, just one person who was in town to watch the Giants for spring training and was drunk all the time said good things about the Phoenix area.

The above growth projections for the area depend on a reliable water supply, incidentally. Arizona will get MUCH less water from the Colorado if levels on Lake Mead drop another several feet, and the repercussions for the state's overall golf and swimming pool "economy" would be disastrous. I can't find the article that said it, but this is at a greater than 50% likelihood by 2017.
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  #480  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2012, 6:12 PM
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I disagree that Arizona's politics have fallen off the radar. As a former arizona resident in the Bay Area, there are two things that people up here relate about Arizona to me all the time: that it's really hot, and that it's really racist.
I will have to second that also, I grew up in AZ and still love the state and plan on going back someday. However, living in a suburb of Baltimore, when people find out that I'm from phoenix, they all say the same thing ...its hot and AZ don't like mexicans. It is sad that AZ has such a bad reputation now.
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