PHILADELPHIA | The Development Thread VIII

[teeheee]

I wonder about the feasibility (and perhaps you more knowledgeable folks could explain to me why or why not) of having not one, but three city centers. The fantasy would be to begin building higher density structures at one compass point, both north and south of CC. Say, around Broad & Washington and Broad & Girard. Then, over time, stitching together the three to create a larger CC area.

[summersm343]

Temple University or "Templetown" has the downtown vibe of North Philadelphia, and the "stitching" from Center City to there has already begun. We are all forgetting about University City. That will become a second downtown long before any of these other spots (or a continuation of center city)

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by teeheee

I wonder about the feasibility (and perhaps you more knowledgeable folks could explain to me why or why not) of having not one, but three city centers. The fantasy would be to begin building higher density structures at one compass point, both north and south of CC. Say, around Broad & Washington and Broad & Girard. Then, over time, stitching together the three to create a larger CC area.

Currently it is considered that the city has two economic centers which are Center City and University City.

From http://www.universitycity.org/publications

The main thing that is stopping your idea at the present time is that most of the area you are talking about would need to be drastically upzoned in order to accomplish what you want. It might happen a long Broad St but I don't see the entire area getting zoned that way because of the cost to upgrade public transit.

[theWatusi]

Originally Posted by Jelly Roll

I think something like having highrise residential with street level retail in the area below would work in the short-term.

Half of your box will soon be Philly Live or whatever they're calling it and the other half is a huge chunk of the parking for CBP. Any development there would require the construction of a huge garage elsewhere $$$$$.

Originally Posted by teeheee

I wonder about the feasibility (and perhaps you more knowledgeable folks could explain to me why or why not) of having not one, but three city centers. The fantasy would be to begin building higher density structures at one compass point, both north and south of CC. Say, around Broad & Washington and Broad & Girard. Then, over time, stitching together the three to create a larger CC area.

A much better idea.

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by theWatusi

Half of your box will soon be Philly Live or whatever they're calling it and the other half is a huge chunk of the parking for CBP. Any development there would require the construction of a huge garage elsewhere $$$$$.



A much better idea.

Extending high density TOD along the Broad St line is a good idea except trying to extend these as Center City nodes to then tie each together in an extension of the original CC sounds good but is very impractical at this time. The main reason is the lack of public transit and the inability for office workers to get to these locations easily. This coupled with the huge swaths of town houses in between means that in order to extend development functioning blocks would have to be knocked down and rebuilt.

Given that the current center city has tons of parking lots that are not developed why would a developer go through the process of trying to buy people out of the houses that they are currently living in? Add to the fact that unless more public transit is put in the zoning will not be changed in order to be able to build high enough density. Given the reluctance of the Washington Square neighborhood to allow higher density buildings I really doubt they change the zoning to allow this. On top of all of this what is the attraction to these new locations over being in Center City?

[theWatusi]

Read back, I'm all in favor of building out center city first. My point was the developments along Broad are a better idea than a fantasy proposal for the sports complex.

Originally Posted by Jelly Roll

The main reason is the lack of public transit and the inability for office workers to get to these locations easily.

Lack of public transit along Broad? Are you high? Did you forget about the BSL?

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by theWatusi

Read back, I'm all in favor of building out center city first. My point was the developments along Broad are a better idea than a fantasy proposal for the sports complex.



Lack of public transit along Broad? Are you high? Did you forget about the BSL?

I did not. My first post in response said that it might work on Broad St. My point is that once you get a block or two from Broad St you lose the public transit. So when you have all of this built up density not just on broad but in the surrounding blocks do you really think one stop will be able to support a center city/ downtown office and residential nodes? In order to make it work another subway line would have to be put in. On top of that getting to these locations from the suburbs would be a complete pain as it would take transferring lines meaning that unless you are right on top of the BSL stop the commute for the office workers is going to be excessive.

[hammersklavier]

It's a bit more than just one or two blocks, Jelly Roll. Rail transit ridership is highest when stations are a ten-minute walk away. Here, that means about five blocks (you figure on traversing a block in two minutes.)

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

It's a bit more than just one or two blocks, Jelly Roll. Rail transit ridership is highest when stations are a ten-minute walk away. Here, that means about five blocks (you figure on traversing a block in two minutes.)

I agree with what you are saying. But in order to truly connect this whole area as a true Center City/Office district I think they would need to add a 10th St line and an 18th St line.

[mattejb]

Originally Posted by theWatusi

Any development there would require the construction of a huge garage elsewhere $$$$$.

Like the Cincinnati Banks project? If They could have over 3,300 parking spots underground why cant Philadelphia?


http://thebankscincy.com/

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by mattejb

Like the Cincinnati Banks project? If They could have over 3,300 parking spots underground why cant Philadelphia?

http://thebankscincy.com/

I'm fine with a few multilevel (10 stories or so) parking garages with retail on the bottom as well as long as they get rid of those parking lots.

[theWatusi]

Originally Posted by mattejb

Like the Cincinnati Banks project? If They could have over 3,300 parking spots underground why cant Philadelphia?


http://thebankscincy.com/

Because for whatever reason our stadiums were built in an area where parking garages aren't required.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to go to a Phils game in University City or on Spring Garden St, but the ballpark wasn't built there. CBP(along with LFF and WFC) are in South Philly for good or for bad. It seems ass backwards to me to artificially create a dense city environment around stadiums that are owned by people who didn't want them to be in one to begin with.

[mattejb]

Originally Posted by theWatusi

Because for whatever reason our stadiums were built in an area where parking garages aren't required.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to go to a Phils game in University City or on Spring Garden St, but the ballpark wasn't built there. CBP(along with LFF and WFC) are in South Philly for good or for bad. It seems ass backwards to me to artificially create a dense city environment around stadiums that are owned by people who didn't want them to be in one to begin with.

How about a shopping mall instead.

[bucks native]

New Airline at PHL


Virgin America adding Phila. routes to Los Angeles, San Francisco

Philadelphia Business Journal by Natalie Kostelni, Reporter

Date: Tuesday, January 17, 2012, 1:29pm EST

[ThirdWay]

Originally Posted by Jelly Roll

Ban on student housing upheld in area near Temple
BY VINNY VELLA
Philadelphia Daily News
Ban on student housing upheld in area near Temple
If you rent to Temple students in Yorktown, be sure to brush up on your beer-pong skills.

In a decision filed Jan. 4, Commonwealth Court upheld a 2010 Common Pleas decision that a special zoning ordinance requiring landlords to live with their student residents in Yorktown homes is constitutional.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20...mpid=124488469

In some ways, this is good news, as it will keep development from spreading out too much. The area west of Temple has experienced significant development over the past several years, but has a long way to go. If the Yorktown ban did not stand, developers would spread out to the south and the west would be left in its quasi-developed state. The west still needs 5, if not 10 more years of steady development to see its vacants lots filled in and a critical mass to stop the vagrant and commonplace violent crimes that happen there.

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by ThirdWay

In some ways, this is good news, as it will keep development from spreading out too much. The area west of Temple has experienced significant development over the past several years, but has a long way to go. If the Yorktown ban did not stand, developers would spread out to the south and the west would be left in its quasi-developed state. The west still needs 5, if not 10 more years of steady development to see its vacants lots filled in and a critical mass to stop the vagrant and commonplace violent crimes that happen there.

I just worry that other areas will follow the lead of Yorktown. I also think that it is not fair to single out students. If it was a ban on all renting without the owner being present I would be okay with it but to be specific to students does not seem fair in my opinion.

[hammersklavier]

It's a possibility but remember that Yorktown was a more middle-class enclave even when every neighborhood around it had turned to sh!t and so has traditionally had a powerful NIMBYdom more in line with what's seen in gentrifying neighborhoods. It also doesn't help matters that Darrell Clarke is also dead set on increasing the area the Yorktown ban is applied to...to the west. Idiot.

IMO the Yorktown ban is (or ought to be) unconstitutional but the neighborhood to the west is a natural student ghetto for Temple. Denser development also needs to go in along Broad Street, particularly around Girard and Susq-Dauphin.

[summersm343]

Article by NakedPhilly on the Museum Tower, which will be Museum Towers 2

http://nakedphilly.com/logan-square/...ers-part-deux/

[summersm343]

Article about the Uptown Theater Renovations from Philadelphiaheights

http://philadelphiaheights.wordpress...d-renovations/

[Cro Burnham]

Yorktown is a physically very unattractive neighborhood - it looks like a pocket of the Northeast. None of the buildings there are of any architectural distinction, so there is no great loss that rentals won't be developed there. The great loss occurred when they built Yorktown in the first place. It, like many of the City-sponsored post war redevelopment projects, looks like a badly designed alien ship landed in the middle of a 19th century neighborhood.

I agree, it's better if student housing development is channeled to where it would actually positively impact the streetscapes of neighborhoods that are still aesthetically salvageable, like the areas immediately to the west side of Broad.

Most of the areas to the southeast of Temple have been completely ruined beyond repair over the last 50 years due to very poorly, inappropriately designed wanna-be suburban style public redevelopment projects.

To the extent that anyone ever wants to restore an urban feel to that section, the only hope, in my opinion, is demo everything built since 1947 between Cecil B Moore and Spring Garden, create a high density masterplan, and sell off the land wholesale to multiple private developers with redevelopment agreements with strong clawback provisions.

Of course that will never happen, and of course I recognize that in many respects Yorktown is considered a success in that it retained basically the only middle class pocket left in North Philly. It's just too bad it's so damn ugly.