PHILADELPHIA | The Development Thread VIII

[cubanChris]

I think those mobs were also anticipated, especially after '08.

Gotta say I was on Broad St for both runs and with little exception, there was a lotta love flying between people... between people and cars/glass/buildings.

Not so much.

Still, they were anticipated. If you wanted to avoid them, avoid the city. These mobs are random, more frequent (sadly for the city's sport team trophy cases) and met without proper police preparation.... which isn't their fault given it takes a pretty large effort in advance of the Phillies mobs.

[Pennsgrant]

Originally Posted by justremember

I think you're mostly correct, but in addition to the racial make up, these flash mobs are also made up of kids. I think the two points mean (1) we have to make sure we are fair in evaluating the situation and don't allow race to cloud our perception, and (2) we have to consider what solutions will be most effective (and not necessarily the most punitive or segregating) in solving this problem.

Not all blacks are flash mobbers but all flash mobbers are black.

You cant sugar coat the problem, you cant tippy toe around the situation. This is more of a black problem then it is a teen problem. There are hundreds of thousands of white,latino,asian teens in the city and none of them are involved in this recent scourge that is plaguing the city.

[justremember]

Originally Posted by Pennsgrant

Not all blacks are flash mobbers but all flash mobbers are black.

You're missing the point. Yes, flash mobs are unanticipated (although, as someone mentioned above, there hast to be some way to catch up with the technology and prevent or at least anticipate these things) but it's not just black people who behave badly. I remember watching the celebration after the Phillies won and thinking, "if black people did this, it would push the World Series off the front page and we'd have a city-wide rioting crisis." Bottom line: there's a double standard. When mobs of white people create dangerous situations, it's celebratory, when it's black people, it's a threat.

[Pennsgrant]

Originally Posted by justremember

You're missing the point. Yes, flash mobs are unanticipated (although, as someone mentioned above, there hast to be some way to catch up with the technology and prevent or at least anticipate these things) but it's not just black people who behave badly. I remember watching the celebration after the Phillies won and thinking, "if black people did this, it would push the World Series off the front page and we'd have a city-wide rioting crisis." Bottom line: there's a double standard. When mobs of white people create dangerous situations, it's celebratory, when it's black people, it's a threat.

The black race is held under a microscope and for good statistical reasononing. I read an article last year that of the 408 people who were killed in Phildlephia in 2007, 95% of the victims or assailaints were african american. 2,800 people were shot in Philadlephia last year, the large majority of them involved african americans.

There is going to be a stigma attached to a large group of blacks teens as opposed to whites or asians. Thats not being a racist that's reality.

[We Got Five]

justremember - this crisis has been growing. The Phillies situation was just as a wrong and just as destructive...but it was not all white. Refer to the pictures on philly.com.

The current mobs are acting in unison to act out. They seem to be enjoying the fact that civilized people are scared to death to go out in center city. The tourist impact following these mobs will be dramatic.

[Swinefeld]

Originally Posted by Pennsgrant

Not all blacks are flash mobbers but all flash mobbers are black.

And as I pointed out elsewhere, not all of these kids are from Philadelphia. Many of them are coming in from the suburbs. The problem will be solved when the Philly cops learn to be more proactive (I hate that word) and less reactive.

[Cro Burnham]

I agree with those who are saying that this is obviously mainly a problem related to black youth, but it is also true that there is a double standard - when whites congregate in huge groups and get drunk (Mummer's, St. Patrick's), no one seems to make such a big fuss about all the drunken idiocy, moronic yelling, garbage, and piss in the street.

As an aside, I was walking home from work over 10 years ago when the first spontaneous mardi gras celebration broke out on South Street - that was at least half white, and it was freaky. The people were all behaving like animals. It seemed like anything might happen. I walked down South Street on the way home fascinated, but my adrenalin was pumping and I was hyper alert to the danger that seemed ready to explode. There were lots of creepy low rent whites, latinos, and blacks that night, male and female.

Obviously what makes these flash mobs different than in the past is the random spontaneity of it. The police can prepare for and control the Greek Picnic, Mardi Gras, Mummers, St. Patricks, political protests, sports events, concerts, etc. I am sure they will find a way to control these spontaneous gatherings too, but I wonder how.

Ironically, totalitarian regimes - China, Iran, the Deep South - may have a thing or two teach us about fast effective police reaction to spontaneous gatherings of this type. I'm not suggesting that we run the kids over with tanks, but confronting the kids with a very clear set of alternatives - one "go home peacefully now", the other over-the-top threatening - might effectively prevent any more such gatherings for a year or so.

It will be interesting to find out what the next response will be. But it is very sad that these kids are so screwed up that they need this outlet to be heard and felt when most people would prefer not even to know they exist. These kids are getting a short-term rush out of it, but they will be the biggest losers in the end, which I suspect will be soon.

On the peaceful side, the police should be coordinating with the schools and the Mayor's office to hit on this. The schools should be giving a place for the kids to constructively express themselves as to why they are participating and also to learn in advance what the police consequences will be if they are caught doing it again. The mayor should be on TV non stop shaming the kids' "parents" and reminding them of their responsibility to address this behavior severely in the privacy of their homes.

[relnahe]

When you guys want to talk about development and not some lame suburbanites and their fear of black teenagers I'll be here posting stuff like this.

http://www.philebrity.com/2010/03/22...lenfest-plaza/

This afternoon, the Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts revealed its approved conceptual designs for Lenfest Plaza, a new pedestrian court that will take up that little sliver of what is now Cherry Street at Broad. Designed by David Rubin at landscape architectural firm OLIN, Lenfest Plaza will be open 24/7, feature an as-yet unnamed “upscale restauarant” (paging Starr or Garces?), and a “major work of art is being commissioned by a renowned sculptor and rotating works of emerging and established artists will be continually on display.”

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by relnahe

When you guys want to talk about development and not some lame suburbanites and their fear of black teenagers I'll be here posting stuff like this.

http://www.philebrity.com/2010/03/22...lenfest-plaza/

.”

Thanks for trying to get the conversation back on track.

I like the design, very french; however, I wish they would incorporate some nice stand alone lighting and maybe some greenery...giant hanging ferns or something just to add a little life.

The only thing I didn't like about that article was calling PAFA the "real" art school in town. I think Tyler students up on Temple's campus would challenge that statement as Temple's Tyler School of Art is ranked Top 10 in the country. Which BTW, hardly anyone posted anything about the Temple 20/20 Plan a couple pages back. At $1.2Billion, it is one of the largest developments going on in this city over the next 5 years and deserves some credit for what they are attempting to do to that area.

[relnahe]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

The only thing I didn't like about that article was calling PAFA the "real" art school in town. I think Tyler students up on Temple's campus would challenge that statement as Temple's Tyler School of Art is ranked Top 10 in the country. Which BTW, hardly anyone posted anything about the Temple 20/20 Plan a couple pages back. At $1.2Billion, it is one of the largest developments going on in this city over the next 5 years and deserves some credit for what they are attempting to do to that area.

I think it was knock at Uarts and the Arts Institute and not Tyler. I think a lot of people forget about Tyler and just think of Temple as a whole

If the the Temple 20 project remains dedicated to the pedestrian as the plans show, I can't see anything but success. Not only will it be good for Temple but for all of North Philadelphia.

[Muji]

Good stuff on Temple and PAFA's plans! It's great to see two of the city's finest institutions investing in North Broad, which is probably one of the most important final frontiers in the city's revitalization. I can't wait to see it happen.

[volguus zildrohar]

I'm not touching the flash mob stuff. I'll just say it isn't helpful and the people responsible are passing the buck.

A) There was an article in today's Inky about the architect of NYC's famous 5th Avenue Apple Store, a man from Scranton, who is also designing the facade of Philadelphia's Apple Store due to open in July. Though it won't be as iconic as the 5th Avenue store it will incorporate the same design features as the famous Cube.

B) Also, this Wednesday Mayor Nutter will host Steve Wynn to chew the fat about the Civic Vision for the Delaware. It will be Wynn's first opportunity to hear about the Vision and it is hoped that he will incorporate its tenets into the final design for his South Philly casino.

C) I haven't seen it here yet but the city has been toying with the idea of an Intermodal Transit Center, a solution for tying the city's transit system with the Greyhound Bus Terminal - essestially dealing with the issue of the terminal's current location. What I've seen thus far isn't too promising - it's seems less about putting the terminal in a more sensible location and more about connecting it to Market Street and the SEPTA system which I feel is attacking only half the problem. These are preliminary ideas and PlanPhilly has the details.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by relnahe

I think it was knock at Uarts and the Arts Institute and not Tyler. I think a lot of people forget about Tyler and just think of Temple as a whole

If the the Temple 20 project remains dedicated to the pedestrian as the plans show, I can't see anything but success. Not only will it be good for Temple but for all of North Philadelphia.

I agree with everything you just said.

I'm very excited about both the PAFA and Temple 20/20 projects as I think they are critical to successfully expanding the Avenue of the Arts northward and to connecting East and West revitialization. Now what I feel is needed is a smart developer to do something with the area all around the Devine Loraine as that is the midpoint between City Hall and Temple. If Fairmont and Broad were successfully built up correctly, it would also help connect the growth overspill in NoLibs to Francisville/Fairmont. Still a ways off...but never too early for local leaders to try to get ahead of growing trends.

[Phil_North]

It is a smart idea to connect the bus terminal to everything else. I think 8th and Market and the surrounding few blocks is the prime transit location in the city. It is the only place where you can get Greyhound, Regional Rail, NJT, Patco, the el, and the 8th & Market extension of the Broad Street Line. I doubt Amtrak would ever run NE Corridor trains through Septa's connector tunnel, but aside from Amtrak, which is only a short RR train ride to 30th street, there's no transit you cannot get to from the vicinity of 8th & Market. An Intermodal Transit Center can definitely help the area and spur development. Market Street should be our version of 42nd street. It's location between Olde City tourist attractions/nightlife and the business oriented western half of Center City is ideal.

[volguus zildrohar]

This project is part of the larger project of overhauling Market East. The people behind it see the area in the same way that you described, Phil.

ScreamShatter, I've always thought of Broad/Ridge & Fairmount as a place that could be - and once was - a great crossroads. It's shame that little of the revitalization that Center City has seen over these years has moved that way. In all four directions there are acres and acres waiting for brighter days. A ways off, yes, but I believe it's possible. The state of Ridge Avenue, particularly in that area, is also a shame. The Ridge Avenue subway is a great conduit through an area nobody goes to.

[blorkishdork]

Man, I love the ridge corridor between broad and like 9th. There are some great buildings around there. Some are already beginning to be renovated in the past few years. I would love to open up subway station on the ridge line at around spring garden street (and eventually extend it south of market and northeast to Manayunk/Roxborough) and have a plaza between buttonwood, ridge, broad, and 12th, maybe call it Edgar Allen Poe plaza (Poe plaza for short?). This would give that area a nice park and focal point that area desperately needs. I am visioning a less desirable Copley square in Boston. With Chinatown businesses and residents moving northward, I think the demand for such amenities are there.

[Phil_North]

The Ridge Avenue cooridor between Spring Garden and Broad does seem like a logical progression northward for Chinatown.

[Muji]

I think one of the greatest hindrances to Chinatown's northern expansion isn't so much the Vine Street Expressway as the massive vacant lots that line the north side of Vine St. between 10th and 12th. Ideally, those lots should be aggressively assembled by either the Redevelopment Authority or some private developer and built on. Walking over Vine Street is unpleasant, but I'd argue that the sight that greets visitors on the other side is far more unsettling.

One relatively recent project in that area that didn't get any attention here was the Lucky Garden condo complex, built between 12th, Buttonwood, Ridge, and Hamilton by a Chinatown developer. It's another nice infill project with plenty of streetfront retail that looks like a lot of the new stuff that's recently popped up on South Street around Hawthorne and G-Ho. It's exactly the kind of development we need to be encouraging in Chinatown North, closer to Vine Street. I don't have any photos, but you can get a good look at it on Google Street View

[hammersklavier]

I've long thought that one of the reasons why Callowhill/Loft District/Chinatown North/whatever we're calling it today is underdeveloped is because we're talking about a neighborhood association turf war of sorts there. Callowhill (the traditional neighborhood) proper extends between Spring Garden and Vine, Broad and 8th; the Reading Viaduct bifurcates this tract and should be thought of as the division between the latter day "Chinatown North" and "Loft District" sections of this neighborhood; yet we have characteristically "Chinatown North" developments on the "Loft District" (pardon all the quotes, but they're really necessary here) side of the Viaduct, and some characteristically "Loft District" plans and projects on the "Chinatown North" side of the Viaduct. To make things even worse, "Chinatown North" (which is a tributary of Chinatown) and the "Loft District" (insofar as the non-Asian denizens of this neighborhood would not consider themselves Chinatown residents; Callowhill, although still the "official" name can hardly be used anymore) have completely different visions for the future of the neighborhood; Chinatown, in general, wants to park the lower-income more-recent-immigrants to Chinatown here and get rid of (parts of) the Viaduct, which they (in its currently unmaintained and unbeautified state, correctly) consider to be a blighting influence on lot size and an eyesore preventing the inflow of development monies; the "Loft District" on the other hand, wants to beautify said Viaduct and use it as a neighborhood center to attract investment monies and gentrify the district. Needless to say, the two visions attract proponents to either side and completely divide the neighborhood's residents as relatively few Asians take the "preserve the Viaduct" stance and relatively few non-Asians take the "demolish the Viaduct and optimize the parceling" stance--and since the issue of the Viaduct is the single most important issue in the neighborhood, with its constituency so divided, nothing can get done, and thus this neighborhood continues to molder, despite its proximity to Center City.

However, you are right in that even though the future of the neighborhood's core is being hotly fought, development can still go into the edges without encountering the issues dominant in the core (such as, "Will this parcel still be the same size a year from now? Mightn't it be bigger?").

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar

I'm not touching the flash mob stuff. I'll just say it isn't helpful and the people responsible are passing the buck.

A) There was an article in today's Inky about the architect of NYC's famous 5th Avenue Apple Store, a man from Scranton, who is also designing the facade of Philadelphia's Apple Store due to open in July. Though it won't be as iconic as the 5th Avenue store it will incorporate the same design features as the famous Cube.

B) Also, this Wednesday Mayor Nutter will host Steve Wynn to chew the fat about the Civic Vision for the Delaware. It will be Wynn's first opportunity to hear about the Vision and it is hoped that he will incorporate its tenets into the final design for his South Philly casino.

C) I haven't seen it here yet but the city has been toying with the idea of an Intermodal Transit Center, a solution for tying the city's transit system with the Greyhound Bus Terminal - essestially dealing with the issue of the terminal's current location. What I've seen thus far isn't too promising - it's seems less about putting the terminal in a more sensible location and more about connecting it to Market Street and the SEPTA system which I feel is attacking only half the problem. These are preliminary ideas and PlanPhilly has the details.

Sorry -- probably an obvious question, but what is the Reading Terminal Headhouse? Is that new or are they completely splitting up the Market?

I wouldn't mind seeing RTM expanded to Market St but I think the picture below makes it look disjointed to some extent.