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  #81  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2009, 3:27 PM
socialisthorde socialisthorde is offline
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Originally Posted by Winnipegger@Heart View Post
Oh my God, Mr. Rogers...
Oh my god, Dick Chenhy... There, that moved the argument along. Thanks for your input.
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  #82  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2009, 5:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ScrappyPeg View Post
I don't believe that kids join gangs because they live in poverty. There are many kids who come from impoverished families and they never join gangs. That direct line that someone said is drawn between poverty and crime? Since all poor people do not necessarily breed criminals, I think that line actually is drawn between those that are taught no self respect and those who were never taught to take responsibility for their actions and crime.

There are many people whose families are considered poor, and the parents in those families still teach their children values and social responsibility.

My parents came from very poor, impoverished backgrounds. They were also taught to be thankful for what they had - I think that is the difference. You can be poor and still have morals.
it's not only being poor, is that they grow up in broken families and in a broken neighborhood... they see no other in life than those actions since they were kids, how do you expect them to change? You can change a kid with education, you can't change an adult, we are what our families are most of the times, very few people can break the cycle and if they do they just live the neighborhood which in turn becomes worst and worst. It's the same as blacks in the USA, etc... it's not only poverty but also the ghettos they live in that condemns them to this fate. The issue is surely not going to solve itself, these ghettos need to be changed, i.e. move the kids to schools of other neighborhoods, improve the schools so that they can teach more than maths and English but also civic life etc., schools need to educate these kids fully because their families and friends surely ain't gonna do it.
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  #83  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2009, 9:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScrappyPeg View Post
I don't believe that kids join gangs because they live in poverty. There are many kids who come from impoverished families and they never join gangs. That direct line that someone said is drawn between poverty and crime? Since all poor people do not necessarily breed criminals, I think that line actually is drawn between those that are taught no self respect and those who were never taught to take responsibility for their actions and crime.

There are many people whose families are considered poor, and the parents in those families still teach their children values and social responsibility.

My parents came from very poor, impoverished backgrounds. They were also taught to be thankful for what they had - I think that is the difference. You can be poor and still have morals.
just because all children who grow up in poverty dont turn to crime or gangs doesnt mean that there is no connection between poverty and crime....

i of course agree that there are many poor kids who avoid these pitfalls and grow up to great people...just as there are many middle class children who grow up to be criminals....it is impossible, however to ignore the obvious connection between crime and economic standing.

look at the map showing where crime happens in winnipeg...it isnt a coincidence that it happens in the poorest neighbourhoods.

it isnt the fact that these people are poor specifically, but the conditions that will lead to the lack of guidance that you talk about are more prevalent in poor households...lack of opportunity, education, broken homes etc....these things all conspire against the poor more than they do middle class children, which leads to a greater proportion of poor kids turning in the wrong direction.
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  #84  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2009, 9:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Winnipegger@Heart View Post
Oh my God, Mr. Rogers...
just so you know for future reference....when engaged in a debate, responding with name calling is the equivalent of saying 'you have raised some good points that i am not able to defend intelligently so i will try to deflect the discussion in another direction to hopefully disguise the fact that i dont know how to answer.'
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  #85  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2009, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
just because all children who grow up in poverty dont turn to crime or gangs doesnt mean that there is no connection between poverty and crime....
No, but for example, the poorest province in Canada, Newfoundland, has very low rates of violent crime. Similarly in the U.S., West Virginia is synonymous with poverty and yet has relatively low rates of crime. Poverty and criminality may in some cases be joint effects of other factors (e.g. low levels of intelligence or a high degree of impulsiveness) but that doesn't make poverty the major "cause" of crime (although no one would deny that in a few cases of extreme poverty people might literallly be "driven" to crime to feed their families etc. -- this Depression-era imagery seems, however, to be all too fondly cherished by sentimental liberal types who continue to reason on the topic of crime as though the nature of criminality and North American society hadn't changed since the Dust Bowl). The impoverished and the criminal are categories with a high degree of overlap, as you say, but correlation is not causation.
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  #86  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2009, 12:18 AM
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While I do think there is some evidence that would suggest there is some link between wealth and crime, I think it would be incorrect to suggest that low income turns someone into a criminal.

The fact is the moral fibers of lower income neighbourhoods are challeneged by criminal elements such as gangs who falsely promise a better life, once they turn there backs on right and wrong.

There is evidence of many societies where the moral fiber of socety is protected from gangs and criminal elements and maintain very low crime rates. If we can't descide to protect out children against those who would victimize them for criminal ventures than really our society is on a downward slope. Make the laws .. deter criminal activity and organization with very strict penalties, and reinforce lawful behavior that would support the social fabric.

Its too bad that many of the left don't believe in supporting the social fabric of society, but only government handouts, which does nothing to fix long term problems.
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Last edited by newflyer; Sep 28, 2009 at 12:33 AM.
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  #87  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2009, 3:43 AM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
just so you know for future reference....when engaged in a debate, responding with name calling is the equivalent of saying 'you have raised some good points that i am not able to defend intelligently so i will try to deflect the discussion in another direction to hopefully disguise the fact that i dont know how to answer.'
Signature worthy quote for sure...
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  #88  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2009, 3:48 AM
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not to sound like a racist or anything but it boils down to natives and how its the blacks in the states or the hispanics ect don't know why that sterio type is true in many cases but it is........
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  #89  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2009, 5:07 PM
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It's not racist when put into perspective. The groups you mention have higher percentages of it's people born into lower than average conditions.
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  #90  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2009, 6:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
No, but for example, the poorest province in Canada, Newfoundland, has very low rates of violent crime. Similarly in the U.S., West Virginia is synonymous with poverty and yet has relatively low rates of crime. Poverty and criminality may in some cases be joint effects of other factors (e.g. low levels of intelligence or a high degree of impulsiveness) but that doesn't make poverty the major "cause" of crime (although no one would deny that in a few cases of extreme poverty people might literallly be "driven" to crime to feed their families etc. -- this Depression-era imagery seems, however, to be all too fondly cherished by sentimental liberal types who continue to reason on the topic of crime as though the nature of criminality and North American society hadn't changed since the Dust Bowl). The impoverished and the criminal are categories with a high degree of overlap, as you say, but correlation is not causation.

is it pure coincidence then that crime in winnipeg happens in the poorest neighbourhoods?....it isnt poverty alone that is the issue but the social disparity between rich and poor....perhaps an explanation for your examples.

you can show isolated examples to the contrary of any debate, but it doesnt disprove the hypothesis with otherwise overwhelming evidence to support it.

poverty doesnt create crime but the conditions that cause crime (broken homes, lack of education and opportunity) are more prevalent in poor areas.

http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderpo...5-d9b15bd62ffe

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&gl=ca
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  #91  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2009, 6:44 PM
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what about people that are just plane bord and have nothing to do
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  #92  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2009, 6:45 PM
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there was an article about this in today's winnipeg sun...it had a bold type comment embedded into it basically saying 'winnipeg is certainly the most violent place on earth'....the quote was attributed to 'a poster on newwinnipeg.com'...hilarious news source....quite the paper that sun is.
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  #93  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2009, 7:07 PM
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hahah newpeg is dead
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  #94  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2009, 11:34 PM
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Regarding poverty and crime...

A huge disparity between the wealthiest and poorest members in a society arguably results in a higher crime rate than those situations where the majority of citizens are poorer. Therefore, I'm not sure that it's relevant to compare West Virginia society to Winnipeg as an argument to suggest that poverty doesn't affect the crime rate.

Regarding crime in the US, I believe crime is higher in the city proper (as opposed to consolidated metropolitan areas) possibly because there is a larger concentration of poor and marginalized people (Blacks) in the US city cores. This is just an observation, as I have no ready stats to back this up.
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  #95  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 1:17 AM
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both west virginia and newfoundland have low populations and no real urban areas, which would affect the comparison....compare urban areas of similar size with different poverty rates and you will probably find a different result.

the violent crime rates in st. john's is not far off ours actually...similar to vancouver...

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...rime-2008.html

interesting charts that kind of disprove the 'we need more cops' argument.



Last edited by trueviking; Sep 29, 2009 at 1:32 AM.
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  #96  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 3:32 AM
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Short term or more immediate types of solutions are totally necessary when addressing issues around crime (ie:more cops). People have a right to feel safe in their communities.

Longer term remedies to social problems do not typically demonstrate an immediate impact. It seems that even the most effective policies take years to show any benefit.

At the end of the day ....even with all sorts of well intentioned social policies and safety nets aimed at lowering poverty rates etc there will always be the haves and the have nots. I don't believe that can be changed....even with all the stats and knowledge out there.
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  #97  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 3:35 AM
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interesting........ some other things are at play to like rate of depression and people using things to escape it... witch tie back to alot of the social problems in this country..
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  #98  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 8:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
No, but for example, the poorest province in Canada, Newfoundland, has very low rates of violent crime. Similarly in the U.S., West Virginia is synonymous with poverty and yet has relatively low rates of crime. Poverty and criminality may in some cases be joint effects of other factors (e.g. low levels of intelligence or a high degree of impulsiveness) but that doesn't make poverty the major "cause" of crime (although no one would deny that in a few cases of extreme poverty people might literallly be "driven" to crime to feed their families etc. -- this Depression-era imagery seems, however, to be all too fondly cherished by sentimental liberal types who continue to reason on the topic of crime as though the nature of criminality and North American society hadn't changed since the Dust Bowl). The impoverished and the criminal are categories with a high degree of overlap, as you say, but correlation is not causation.
Newfoundland is poor only relative to other provinces. They're not really poor, they're just not rich either.

Hey maybe I'm onto something!
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  #99  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 11:26 PM
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Oh, I should have caught this earlier. N + L has one of the highest per capita GDP numbers in the country.
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  #100  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2009, 12:40 AM
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Last edited by DowntownWpg; Sep 30, 2009 at 12:41 AM. Reason: oops! still working on my post, sorry.
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