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  #1  
Old Posted: Oct 18, 2009, 2:12 AM
mpd618 mpd618 is offline
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Uptown Waterloo vs. Downtown Kitchener

I'm tired of the frequent back-and-forth on this subject that derails a number of threads on this board. In my opinion, uptown and downtown are both good, both can and should be improved, and the progress of one does not hurt the other (though may well hurt the suburbs).

If you must argue the subject, I ask that you please do it here and not in every tangentially related thread.
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  #2  
Old Posted: Oct 18, 2009, 5:18 AM
Cambridgite Cambridgite is offline
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Great idea, mphd168. I don't mind the debate, but I don't like it derailing everything else.

In my opinion, uptown Waterloo is nicer and offers more, for the time being. Definitely better pubs and more of them (only Bobby O'Briens can compete in the uptown scene). Better streetscape and the pedestrian activity goes beyond the typical 9-5 (though Kitchener is busy at lunch). It is better located in terms of being easily accessible to the large student population that lies just to the north-northwest. At present, more development proposals seem to be on the plate for uptown. Lack of panhandlers and sketchy types is nice, but in some ways, it makes it seem less real. The shopping is more high-end, which works for some people, but much of it is out of my range.

Downtown Kitchener has some leads over Waterloo. Mainly, it is larger in geographical size, population, and number of employees/businesses. It is also located very centrally and serviced by a large bus terminal, which is something uptown does not have. Downtown is not completely without nice businesses. Ye's sushi is a great restaurant, and it lacks an uptown location. Catacombs is downtown, as well as Pepi's. Matter of taste has a better street presence in downtown than it does uptown. Downtown has better markets, including the Farmer's Market and New City supermarket. There are more interesting old buildings (though Cambridge has both of the twin-cities beat in this department ) and King has more of a continuous, big city feel when you look down it in downtown compared to uptown. The people presence in downtown definitely has more sketch elements to it than uptown, but again, that's part of the package of being a real city. Victoria Park has more character to it than Waterloo Park, IMO, and Kitchener's got a greater stock of residential neighborhoods around the downtown.

In the short-medium term, uptown has more going for it, since it's at the end of the tri-cities that is the hub of the 'new economy', while it becomes more manufacturing-logistics based as you head toward the Cambridge end of things (though manufacturing is absolutely crashing hard now, which is a big problem for this region, especially Cambridge). However, as land values rise and businesses start feeling cramped for space in Waterloo, I can see a filtering down happening towards Kitchener, which in reality, is not that much further. This is already happening to some extent (i.e. Lang Tannery and other previous office relocations to downtown). And sorry, but there's more to downtown in the way of bones. More hustle and bustle during the day, which needs to be extended into the night. Kitchener's streetscape has made a big leap in the past year, for obvious reasons, and feels a lot less creepy at night now.
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  #3  
Old Posted: Oct 18, 2009, 2:53 PM
jcollins jcollins is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cambridgite View Post
Great idea, mphd168. I don't mind the debate, but I don't like it derailing everything else.

In my opinion, uptown Waterloo is nicer and offers more, for the time being. Definitely better pubs and more of them (only Bobby O'Briens can compete in the uptown scene). Better streetscape and the pedestrian activity goes beyond the typical 9-5 (though Kitchener is busy at lunch). It is better located in terms of being easily accessible to the large student population that lies just to the north-northwest. At present, more development proposals seem to be on the plate for uptown. Lack of panhandlers and sketchy types is nice, but in some ways, it makes it seem less real. The shopping is more high-end, which works for some people, but much of it is out of my range.
You're right, Waterloo does have more life post 5pm, especially in terms of nightlife, but by and large, neither uptown nor downtown are booming during the evenings. That should increase with more people living there though.


I think one of the reasons Waterloo gets a lot more residential developments and people wanting to live uptown is because there are more jobs within a relatively close vicinity. Even jobs that aren't within walking distance (RIM, Manulife, etc) will have employees living uptown. Kitchener right now, plain and simple struggles with that, while there are a decent number of people that work downtown, there aren't enough, and those that do, most of them don't live downtown. It'll be interesting to see what happens when Centre Block goes ahead, what kind of numbers they get.
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  #4  
Old Posted: Oct 18, 2009, 5:06 PM
Cambridgite Cambridgite is offline
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Originally Posted by jcollins View Post
I think one of the reasons Waterloo gets a lot more residential developments and people wanting to live uptown is because there are more jobs within a relatively close vicinity. Even jobs that aren't within walking distance (RIM, Manulife, etc) will have employees living uptown. Kitchener right now, plain and simple struggles with that, while there are a decent number of people that work downtown, there aren't enough, and those that do, most of them don't live downtown.
Depends what you mean by "more jobs within a relatively close vicinity". Yes, Waterloo is more white collar than its neighbours. However, most of those jobs are not uptown. The universities are very large employers unto themselves. You have the R & T Park plus Phillip street north of UW campus. You have some office buildings around King & hwy 86. And of course, now there's a large new office cluster development around University/Northfield.

What's uptown? The Marsland Centre, city hall, KPMG, RBC, Price Waterhouse Coopers, and Allen Square + Sunlife Financial are just to the south. That accounts for only a small % of the office space in the city of Waterloo. Comparing uptown to downtown, downtown has a lot more office space and more employees when you include everything that's down there, including government jobs.

The only way I can see what you're saying is if you include people living uptown and reverse-commuting to suburban jobs. If you include them, yes, there are more jobs closer to uptown. Then again, I'm not including suburban retail, blue-collar, and small-office jobs into this equation, which would help Kitchener and Cambridge substantially.
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  #5  
Old Posted: Oct 18, 2009, 5:23 PM
jcollins jcollins is offline
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You're right, "more jobs within a relatively close vicinity" isn't too clear. I wasn't talking about jobs directly Uptown, that are within walking distance, but more jobs that are a short distance away. The two examples I mentioned are RIM and Manulife, both are relatively close, a short bus ride away. Those two alone have a ton of employees, many of which would be drawn to living uptown.

At this point people have to "reverse commute" as there aren't enough jobs uptown right now. If there were more jobs there, we would possibly see more residential developments.

And the issue in Kitchener, as I mentioned, is that while there are jobs, and people working there, there's not many major residential projects. And that it'll be interesting to see how many of the people that work downtown are willing to live there as well.

Pretty much all I meant was that both uptown and downtown lack in terms of life during the evenings, an issue that will be solved with people living there.

Last edited by jcollins; Oct 18, 2009 at 5:54 PM.
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  #6  
Old Posted: Oct 19, 2009, 12:53 AM
timc timc is offline
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Yay! Uptown Rocks! WhooOOOoo!
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  #7  
Old Posted: Oct 19, 2009, 12:54 AM
timc timc is offline
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Yay! Downtown Rocks! WhooOOOoo!
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  #8  
Old Posted: Oct 21, 2009, 2:30 AM
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urbandreamer urbandreamer is offline
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Uptown=Bayview between Eglinton and Millwood meets Elmira

Downtown=Lakeshore strip in Mimico/New Toronto meets Stratford in the off season.

Uptown would be dead without students. I never see any of my old (suburban) workmates in Uptown. Just students and old folks that live nearby.

Downtown=office workers by day, suburban Kitchener kids by night.

Uptown feels like a small American college town. (Medford Oregon)

Downtown feels like a small American capitol city. (Salem Oregon)
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