Decision 2012: Alberta Politics Thread

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

While of course it is a personal impression, I think if you look at since Redford was elected Leader of the PCs, there has been lots of positive changes in that regard.

Close to half of the PC candidates are new to provincial politics, and all candidates are working to bring the change Redford promissed in her leadership campaign.

A question I would ask is: what different would you like to see for accountability? It is a rather amorphous term, and can mean different things for different people.

It's really that there is a presumption (and probably one that is true in some respects) that there must be corruption after decades in power. Unfortunately it's difficult to prove, since it is mostly up to the goverment which might be corrupt to out it, so the only way to be somewhat convinced is to have a change in government. That said, I think the Wildrose might be more in the energy companies pockets than the PCs.

[Doug]

I was cautiously optimistic about Reford until I found out about the promises she made the teachers' union in return for its support during the leadership race, and then the big spending, unrealistically optimistic budget. Go Wild Rose.

[Tropics]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

As for the Wildrose, I suspect they will be all too similar to the PC’s in the end and really won’t end up being a net positive for the city.

I’m not sure who to vote for I’m a fiscal conservative, that supports funding important programs (health care, social programs, and cities), but I expect the government to do it in a efficient manner, and I’m not sure that the existing conservative parties are all that much different from each other.

The PC party of late is hardly conservative anymore, they have been moving more and more towards the liberal end of the spectrum and that is what has caused alot of the better PC candidates to jump ship and join the Wildrose.

From what I have seen the Wildrose is nothing like the PC party today, they are more akin to the PC party of the early Klein years. They formed because Alberta needed an "actual" conservative party again since the PC's have gotten into the same state of mind that the Liberals at the national level did after decades of consecutive power, untouchable arristocrats who don't need to listen to the people they serve.

[Tropics]

Originally Posted by 240glt

There are very few things that would make me seriously consider leaving Edmonton, but a Wildrose government would have me job shopping back in Vancouver in no time.

<snip>

I'll be voting for Mr. Mason again, and I suspect he'll win Edmonton Norwood-Highlands again

Crazy, an NDP supporter in Vancouver...

The fact is both Calgary AND Edmonton AND Fort MacMurray AND Grand Prarie AND every other freaking city or town in Alberta has a pretty close connection to the oil industry. That is not a Calgary industry, that in an Alberta industry and ALOT of people in all of the major centers work in the industry directly or in related support industry. When people say "oh it will be good for oil companies but not Albertans" I kinda laugh, do you fathom how connected virtually everyone's job in this province is to a strong O&G sector? Do you not see what happens to unemployment in this province when oil prices drop, when the gas prices plummeted? Those jobs that are being lost are not just engineers and geologists, everyone is getting hit in this entire province by a weak O&G sector.

[Xelebes]

The only problem is that the base of the Wildrose policy is based in Southern Alberta and Southern Alberta is not exactly alike Central and Northern Alberta. The Wildrose spends too much of its time trying to antagonise the Central and Northern Albertans and may be its biggest hurdle when it comes to forming government.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Tropics

The PC party of late is hardly conservative anymore, they have been moving more and more towards the liberal end of the spectrum and that is what has caused alot of the better PC candidates to jump ship and join the Wildrose.

From what I have seen the Wildrose is nothing like the PC party today, they are more akin to the PC party of the early Klein years. They formed because Alberta needed an "actual" conservative party again since the PC's have gotten into the same state of mind that the Liberals at the national level did after decades of consecutive power, untouchable arristocrats who don't need to listen to the people they serve.

As if the low level of infrastructure investment and continual labour strife of the early Klein years was a good thing?

[DizzyEdge]

The PCs are like the Federal Liberals were, regardless of the label, they win by taking over the center.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

As if the low level of infrastructure investment and continual labour strife of the early Klein years was a good thing?

The early Klein years were the best government the province has ever seen. It set the stage for the current boom.

There was hardly any labor strife. All of the public sector unions agreed to a 5% roll back and layoffs (I took my 5% in the fall of 93). There were threats of strike, but no actual strikes.

Alberta came out of the 80s with over built infrastructure. It could afford to coast through the 90s under the assumption that growth would be continue to be slow. Hind sight is now 20/20 but back in 1993 you would have been asked what you were smoking if you proposed pre-building a bunch of infrastructure because $100 oil would unleash a boom. Back then nobody would have believed sustained $25 oil.

[MalcolmTucker]

But to implement the same policies now while we are growing? Not wise imo.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Doug

The early Klein years were the best government the province has ever seen. It set the stage for the current boom.

There was hardly any labor strife. All of the public sector unions agreed to a 5% roll back and layoffs (I took my 5% in the fall of 93). There were threats of strike, but no actual strikes.

Alberta came out of the 80s with over built infrastructure. It could afford to coast through the 90s under the assumption that growth would be continue to be slow. Hind sight is now 20/20 but back in 1993 you would have been asked what you were smoking if you proposed pre-building a bunch of infrastructure because $100 oil would unleash a boom. Back then nobody would have believed sustained $25 oil.

In education, there had just been a series of major strikes in 1992 so some labour peace in the immediate term was only to be expected. There was hardly a positive relationship though, the threat of work stoppages was very strong any time bargaining occurred throughout the Klein years. It finally culminated in the strikes of 2002 that were only ended with a back to work order that was later deemed judicially to be illegal. The entire period was quite tense.

If the Wildrose actually followed through on right to work legislation, and tried to enforce it on the public sector, there would be significant labour turmoil. It would be ugly.

[MalcolmTucker]

Staples on Wildrose infrastructure plan.

Staples: Wildrose plan to axe transit funding a disaster for cities




By David Staples, edmontonjournal.com
...the Wildrose position on mass transit is strangely out of touch with city voters, as well as unfair to them. If it were implemented, it would be a major blow to Calgary and Edmonton.
...
GreenTrip is now building transit lines in Calgary and Edmonton, with $497 million going into the new NAIT LRT line.
...
Premier Alison Redford has gone on the record repeatedly to voice her support for GreenTrip funding. Indeed, in her commitment to mass transit, Redford comes across as strong and as fierce as Smith does on any of her own staunch policy stances.


But Smith on transit? Way too old school.
...
“It would be a monstrous inequity between urban and rural,” says Edmonton Coun. Don Iveson, head of the Capital Region Board’s transportation committee. “The province would no doubt continue to build highways in rural areas, but the LRT is the equivalent of a highway to Edmontonians and Calgarians as far as how many are able to get to work and get to school and get to markets on it.”
...
Perhaps the Wildrose has calculated that it can win Alberta by isolating the Edmonton region and taking Calgary and rural Alberta, the old Klein coalition. But I can’t see how taking an axe to C-Train funding is going be a winner in Calgary. Voters there recently elected an avid pro-transit mayor in Naheed Nenshi.

[Tropics]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

But to implement the same policies now while we are growing? Not wise imo.

When I said that did you seriosuly think I meant we should use the exact same policies that were used in the early 90's because then and now are so similar? Governments work in the present and with forethought towards their best guess of the future. FDR was IMO the best president the USA ever had, does it mean I think the USA needs to go build a dam and a bunch of poblic work projects right now though? No. The early Klein PC party were they to take over in todays Alberta would turn this province into an economic powerhouse such that it has never been before. Their issue would be "keeping up" with infrastructure with the rapid growth in both economy and population that would result from their actions.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

In education, there had just been a series of major strikes in 1992 so some labour peace in the immediate term was only to be expected. There was hardly a positive relationship though, the threat of work stoppages was very strong any time bargaining occurred throughout the Klein years. It finally culminated in the strikes of 2002 that were only ended with a back to work order that was later deemed judicially to be illegal. The entire period was quite tense.

If the Wildrose actually followed through on right to work legislation, and tried to enforce it on the public sector, there would be significant labour turmoil. It would be ugly.

But there were no strikes 94-96 when most of the cut backs implemented. The Klein government struck fear through union membership and only when it backed off in late 95 after hospital laundry workers protested outsourcing to K-Bro did the unions have a chance to regroup. A blitzkreig of layoffs, wage cuts, right to work, ending tax deductibility of union dues and forcing unions to disclose financial statements and executive compensation could finally drive a stake through their hearts and finally remove a huge barrier to public sector innovation.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

But to implement the same policies now while we are growing? Not wise imo.

Im not so sure. Alberta easily has the best public services and infrastructure on the continent. It could probably afford to coast for a while even with the growth. I still think better management alone could deliver almost the same level of services and infrastructure investment at far lower expenditure levels. With the healthy labor market, the economic impact of public sector layoffs, wage restraint and more aggressive procurement would be minimal. The timing could not be better.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Doug

But there were no strikes 94-96 when most of the cut backs implemented. The Klein government struck fear through union membership and only when it backed off in late 95 after hospital laundry workers protested outsourcing to K-Bro did the unions have a chance to regroup. A blitzkreig of layoffs, wage cuts, right to work, ending tax deductibility of union dues and forcing unions to disclose financial statements and executive compensation could finally drive a stake through their hearts and finally remove a huge barrier to public sector innovation.

Briefly ignoring my thoughts on whether it actually would have been a good idea or remotely good for the province... I really don't think the unions, if pushed further than they already were, were close to collapse; I think they were close to pushing back, hard.

Now a major difference between then and the present is strike readiness. The 92 strikes left the ATA with limited funds during 94-95. It has now been a decade since they've been stressed and they very much could withstand a major work stoppage.

It is also relevant that in the wider North American context, for the first time in forty years, Labour has started to achieve real victories with broad public support. It is very much an open question as to whether the atmosphere today could remotely support the kind of anti-Labour activities that were widely accepted a generation ago. Personally, though I could be wrong, I feel that the pendulum has begun to swing back. As a province, we're not really looking for a government as leftwing as Lougheed's but a return to early Klein just wouldn't play as it did twenty years ago.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Doug

Im not so sure. Alberta easily has the best public services and infrastructure on the continent. It could probably afford to coast for a while even with the growth. I still think better management alone could deliver almost the same level of services and infrastructure investment at far lower expenditure levels. With the healthy labor market, the economic impact of public sector layoffs, wage restraint and more aggressive procurement would be minimal. The timing could not be better.

What can we cut? The last round of cuts came with lots of productivity gains due to automation and the like. You have to not do something to cut these days.

Now the Wildrose wants to leave the South Calgary Hospital empty to save money, I don't really think that is a good idea. Same with the Red Deer Cancer Clinic.

With our population demographics we are going to grow the school age population in the province by 100,000 in the next ten years. Should we not endeavor to build more schools? The Wildrose would cut the amount spent on building schools.

The Wildrose savings are due to layoffs, wage roll backs, less services and building less new things.

Not my cup of tea.

[Tropics]

This editorial sums up my thoughts of Redford and the current state of the PC party.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/ch...607/story.html

Basically in effect the NDP finally got a premier into power, but duping the people of Alberta and putting her into power through a inter-party election.

I REALLY do not want to see any more of Redford running this province. She never should have been able to do so in the first place but the PC's let it happen.

[Boris2k7]

Guess this election with be a question of Liberal Party or Alberta Party for me.

- Wildrose and NDP are out of the question. They share the common problem of not having credible platforms. The Wildrose is just the more angry and sociopathic of the pair. The Wildrose would also hurt cities, which is an instant write off.

- PC is a vote for the status quo... which is not something palatable for me. We could do better than the PCs and I haven't seen any sign of things getting better with Redford in charge. More power to those who can still stomach this party.

- Alberta Party is new and exciting, but... it's still fledgling and very, very similar to the Liberals. With the latter seeming to have gotten back up on their legs, I have to question splitting the left/centre-left further. That said, I can still be convinced.

- Liberals are a vote for that also-ran from previous elections, but they look like they have a bit of fire in them this time. They have policies that talk about things that I care about, like electoral reform, scrapping the flat tax for a progressive tax rate, municipal finance reform, big city charters, etc.

[MalcolmTucker]

Depends what riding you are in, you have to pick wisely to make your vote count towards the outcome. In Calgary outside of Mountain View, Calgary McCall and Calgary Buffalo, the race is between the PCs and Wildrose.

The nature of our system is that a vote beyond its symbolic value for anyone but the top two in each riding doesn't count towards the outcome.

So if you live in a riding where the Wildrose and PCs are the top 2 contenders, and you don't want a Wildrose government, I implore you to think about the effect you may have on that possibility.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Depends what riding you are in, you have to pick wisely to make your vote count towards the outcome. In Calgary outside of Mountain View, Calgary McCall and Calgary Buffalo, the race is between the PCs and Wildrose.

The nature of our system is that a vote beyond its symbolic value for anyone but the top two in each riding doesn't count towards the outcome.

So if you live in a riding where the Wildrose and PCs are the top 2 contenders, and you don't want a Wildrose government, I implore you to think about the effect you may have on that possibility.

Are you speaking from internal polling because, otherwise, I think it might be a little early to count the Liberals out in Calgary Varsity and Calgary Currie at a bare minimum.

My sense is that a great deal of the Wildrose's strength at present is more a reflection of the PCs having a really lousy last month. It could still solidify but if they don't provide a reason to vote for them as opposed to against the PCs it would not be hard for that vote to drift back or even spread to some of the other opposition parties.