HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     
Welcome to the SkyscraperPage Forum

Since 1999, the SkyscraperPage Forum has been one of the most active skyscraper enthusiast communities on the web. The global membership discusses development news and construction activity on projects from around the world, alongside discussions on urban design, architecture, transportation and many other topics. Welcome!

You are currently browsing as a guest. Register with the SkyscraperPage Forum and join this growing community of skyscraper enthusiasts. Registering has benefits such as fewer ads, the ability to post messages, private messaging and more.

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 8:19 PM
Don B. Don B. is offline
...
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 9,122
Table of City Budget Expenditures, ranked by per capita spending

This is a partial table, put together today at lunch with an hour of google surfing. If your city is missing, find me the number with a reliable source and I will update this table. Thanks.



I know one thing, New York has an insane tax burden compared to Phoenix.



--don
__________________
My website:

www.aroundphoenix.com
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 9:29 PM
dimondpark's Avatar
dimondpark dimondpark is offline
FiveTen Represent!?!
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Stinson Beach, CA
Posts: 6,011
For São Paulo, its city budget is R$27 Billion which equals about 14 Billion US Dollars. Considering the city's population of 11 Million, that comes out to about 1,272 US Dollars per person.

http://www.nossasaopaulo.org.br/portal/node/9069

http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert.cgi?Am...9&image=Submit
__________________


"It's raining game in Northern California"

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 9:35 PM
pesto pesto is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,546
I worry about comparability within the US and especially when you go to other countries. But the numbers are interesting. A breakdown of what makes NY so different would be interesting.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 9:39 PM
pip's Avatar
pip pip is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don B. View Post
This is a partial table, put together today at lunch with an hour of google surfing. If your city is missing, find me the number with a reliable source and I will update this table. Thanks.



I know one thing, New York has an insane tax burden compared to Phoenix.



--don
two thoughts. You cannot compare budgets like that. Some things are on budget and some things are off, some cities have things covered by the county and/or state and some cities don't.

also its mighty rich of you to take a swipe at higher tax states when Arizona is a bottom feeder. If Illinois were treated as grandly as Arizona we would have an extra 36+ billion a year to play with. Or even dollar for dollar we would have an extra 10-12 billion a year. Lets say we got treated to a free ride equal to your state, our budget is roughly 30 billion a year, we would have no state taxes what so ever and we would get a refund. Can only dream.
__________________
Only 4 years to go.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 9:40 PM
dimondpark's Avatar
dimondpark dimondpark is offline
FiveTen Represent!?!
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Stinson Beach, CA
Posts: 6,011
According to page 40 of this PDF of Mayor Newsom's budget:
http://www.sfgov.org/site/uploadedfi...0%20Budget.pdf

San Francisco's municipal expenditures for 2010 will be $6.600 Billion, for a city of 800,000 that comes out to about $8,250 per person.
__________________


"It's raining game in Northern California"

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 9:43 PM
pesto pesto is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,546
that's city and county for SF?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 9:44 PM
dimondpark's Avatar
dimondpark dimondpark is offline
FiveTen Represent!?!
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Stinson Beach, CA
Posts: 6,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by pesto View Post
that's city and county for SF?
yes, SF is a city and county and the board of supes is also the 'city council'.
__________________


"It's raining game in Northern California"

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 10:11 PM
Don B. Don B. is offline
...
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 9,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip View Post
two thoughts. You cannot compare budgets like that. Some things are on budget and some things are off, some cities have things covered by the county and/or state and some cities don't.

also its mighty rich of you to take a swipe at higher tax states when Arizona is a bottom feeder. If Illinois were treated as grandly as Arizona we would have an extra 36+ billion a year to play with. Or even dollar for dollar we would have an extra 10-12 billion a year. Lets say we got treated to a free ride equal to your state, our budget is roughly 30 billion a year, we would have no state taxes what so ever and we would get a refund. Can only dream.
New York City is not paying for things that the City of Phoenix is not, as a general rule. In fact, I know New York State's budget is many times higher per capita than Arizona's state budget as well. This is why a typical home in New York pays $15,000 per year in property taxes and in Arizona, $1,500.

Just face it...many other states have too high of a tax burden, and Arizona has too low of a burden.

As for Illinois, at least your freeways were largely paid for by the Feds. Our beltways are not. We had to pass a half cent sales tax to get our freeways. This is why Arizona beltways don't have interstate designations. We also have a lot more Indians and military bases out here than Illinois, which explains some of the federal largesse that comes to Arizona.

--don
__________________
My website:

www.aroundphoenix.com
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 10:19 PM
Gordo's Avatar
Gordo Gordo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: San Francisco, CA/Jackson Hole, WY/Bellevue, WA
Posts: 3,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by pesto View Post
that's city and county for SF?
Yes, and it includes things like the airport, school district, and Hetch Hetchy aqueduct/water distribution system/power plant (which distributes the water for half of the Bay Area, not just SF), which are usually separate entities, even in other combined city/counties.

SF was kind of set up as a mini-kingdom, back in the day (late 1800s/early 1900s), to concentrate power in the city and away from Sacramento (and later, away from Southern California - especially where Hetch Hetchy is concerned). Later, other things got lumped in (like the schools and airport) because the "kingdom" policy was already set in stone in the minds of folks living here.

Last edited by Gordo; Feb 4, 2010 at 10:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 10:27 PM
vid's Avatar
vid vid is offline
y u no take me srsly
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Thunder Bay
Posts: 35,041
Thunder Bay's proposed 2010 municipal operating budget is C$323,400,000 or US$301,116,360. With 109,140 people (as of 2006) the per capita amount is C$2,963.17 or US$2,758.80. Because Northern Ontario lacks county level governments, and because the Ontario government downloaded many of its responsibilities to municipalities in the 1990s, the city of Thunder Bay is basically responsible for social services covering an area about the size of Kentucky (with 149,000 people) though it can only levy tax on properties in the city limits to do this. (It's very extensive--Thunder Bay's social housing system has the most units per capita in Ontario after Toronto, and the city is responsible for paying welfare to people in a region where some communities have 40% unemployment.)

The average house (worth just under C$125,000) receiving full city services, including school board taxes, is paying just under C$2,500 annually. Of this, C$2,100 goes to the city's operating budget. Source, page 2
__________________
Vancouver: September 2013 + other photos / random things
It's not about what you don't have—it's the little you've got, and how far you can run with it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 10:34 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 9,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don B. View Post
New York City is not paying for things that the City of Phoenix is not, as a general rule.
No. As a general rule, this is false.

I could go on all day about things that NYC provides than Phoenix likely does not.

Public hospitals, public housing, public city university (virtually free), free universal Pre-K, guaranteed right to shelter, rent subsidies for a zillion different classes of folks, guaranteed summer jobs for teens, senior centers/meals/subsidies up the wazoo, etc., etc.

Whether this makes any sense is another matter entirely. NYC goes overboard, but Phoenix is the opposite extreme.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don B. View Post
This is why a typical home in New York pays $15,000 per year in property taxes and in Arizona, $1,500.
Totally false. NYC actually has fairly low property taxes. To pay $15,000 in NYC, especially for a single family house, would require a really, really fancy place.

There is no place in NY state where you pay $15,000 for something costing around the U.S. median (150k). Now there are some places in NY state with very high property taxes, but definitely not NYC.

These places are either 1. Wealthy suburbs of NYC that choose to tax themselves highly for gold-plated schools and services; or 2. Rustbelt cities in Western/Central NY state that have no choice.

So yeah, property taxes are high in Scarsdale or Buffalo (but for completely different reasons), but not in NYC.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 10:39 PM
seaskyfan seaskyfan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,671
Not sure how comparable these numbers are. Seattle's budget is $3.8 Billion or around $6,333/capita. About half ($1.9B) of the $3.8B is for city owned utilities - including the electric and water service for an area that exceeds the City limits.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 10:42 PM
Gordo's Avatar
Gordo Gordo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: San Francisco, CA/Jackson Hole, WY/Bellevue, WA
Posts: 3,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don B. View Post
New York City is not paying for things that the City of Phoenix is not, as a general rule.
Schools are not included in the Phoenix budget, since the school districts are separate entities. Schools are included in New York's budget, since the city controls the schools (nearly a third of NYC's budget is for schools).

Also, I don't think that Phoenix has anything comparable to the NYCHA or any one of hundreds of various social programs. You may feel that these are not good programs, but they are certainly things that "NYC is paying for that Phoenix is not."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 10:48 PM
niwell's Avatar
niwell niwell is offline
you go on ahead
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 5,284
Any large city that's required to pay for social housing is going to be at a huge disadvantage in comparisons like this. As vid pointed out, the downloading of services in Ontario has led to certain municipalities being at a far greater disadvantage than others. I didn't realized about Thunder Bay, but in the Golden Horseshoe Toronto and Hamilton carry a larger financial burden on their social housing as compared to neighbouring suburban municipalities simply because they have a lot more of it for obvious reasons.

That's only one of the examples which makes such comparisons a difficult thing. Unless we know what services are being provided for directly by the municipality it isn't exactly apples to apples.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 10:58 PM
Gordo's Avatar
Gordo Gordo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: San Francisco, CA/Jackson Hole, WY/Bellevue, WA
Posts: 3,727
^The biggest two things are social services (which may not even be provided in some cities compared to others) and schools (which are often operated by a separate school district with separate funding and a separate budget from the city's budget, as is the case with Phoenix, for example).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 11:01 PM
vid's Avatar
vid vid is offline
y u no take me srsly
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Thunder Bay
Posts: 35,041
To give people an idea of how big a housing corporation is, Thunder Bay District Housing Corporation has 2,600 units under its direct control and an additional 560 buildings maintained by over 80 individuals that are part of a programme to provide low rent apartments with a reimbursement from the district housing corporation. That's 3,160 units for only 149,000 people. Toronto Community Housing Corporation is responsible for 58,000 units.

If my math is right, Thunder Bay District has 47 citizens per housing unit. Toronto has 43 citizens per housing unit.

http://www.tbdhc.com/history.shtml

The city of Thunder Bay is also required to collect provincial land taxes for the unincorporated areas around the city, and then has to give that money to the province. I don't think they get reimbursed for the staff hours that go into that. It's minor, but that is something that no city in Southern Ontario and many in Northern Ontario don't have to do.
__________________
Vancouver: September 2013 + other photos / random things
It's not about what you don't have—it's the little you've got, and how far you can run with it.

Last edited by vid; Feb 4, 2010 at 11:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 11:13 PM
Don B. Don B. is offline
...
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 9,122
You guys are correct. I went back and secured the correct number for Phoenix. It is $3.6 billion. Will make the other changes as well mentioned above.

But, for the record, Phoenix pays for public housing and has summer jobs for teens. It also has public pools, libraries, police, fire, parks, subsidies for all sorts of enterprises, aviation, water, wastewater, courts, streets, a convention center, public golf courses, local transportation assistance, public transit, community block grants, capital expenditures, renovations and debt service, just to name some.

--don
__________________
My website:

www.aroundphoenix.com
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 11:21 PM
VivaLFuego's Avatar
VivaLFuego VivaLFuego is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 42nd Ward
Posts: 6,418
Something else that varies is whether the city budget includes the public schools or not - schools are always a very large local expenditure in any location. In Chicago, the school district is a separate governing body from the city.

Chicago population (est.): 2,853,114
City of Chicago 2010 budget: $6,139,594,000
Per capita: $2,152

Chicago Public Schools 2010 budget: $5,328,000,000
Per capita: $1,867

Combined (City + Schools): $4,019.

Don, I think it's important to note in your table whether the budget includes the school district or not, as this will create major variations. For example, I'm pretty sure the San Francisco municipal budget includes the public schools. The table should probably either universally include or exclude schools budget, but it has to be one or the other to be remotely comparable across big cities.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2010, 12:25 AM
fflint's Avatar
fflint fflint is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 19,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don B. View Post
But, for the record, Phoenix pays for...water...
Right, and so does every city--up to a point.

San Francisco owns a huge flooded valley next to Yosemite up in the Sierra called Hetch Hetchy. San Francisco flooded that valley and dammed it up; the city owns and operates the power and water facilities there, as well as the lines snaking 200 miles between the mountains and the Bay. San Francisco's municipal water empire serves 2.4 million customers throughout the Bay Area. That's all part of this city's annual budget.

It's that sort of stuff that makes an apples-to-apples comparison difficult, but your effort is still appreciated.
__________________
2014: the United States Supreme Court Imposes Corporate Sharia
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2010, 1:24 AM
VivaLFuego's Avatar
VivaLFuego VivaLFuego is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 42nd Ward
Posts: 6,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don B. View Post
As for Illinois, at least your freeways were largely paid for by the Feds. Our beltways are not. We had to pass a half cent sales tax to get our freeways. This is why Arizona beltways don't have interstate designations.
Uh, Chicago is ringed by tollroads, and even some of national interstate highway roads (e.g. I-90) are tolled in sections to finance construction and maintenance bonds.



I-90 is a tollroad up through Rockford nearly to Wisconsin, and I-88 is a tollroad extending most of the way towards Iowa. The key circumferential routes in the region, the Tri-state (I-294) and the North-South (I-355) are tollroads. Additionally, I-90 to the SE into Indiana (the Skyway) is a tollroad, owned by the City but leased out to a foreign consortium on a 99-year lease.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
   
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:12 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.