Calgary Public Transit II

[fusili]

Re: Wooster's article on transit "design"

I couldn't agree more. Not on every point, but on the way transit authorities need to change their perspective. Not just on how people experience transit, but how and why they use it as well. No offence to engineers, because they do a really difficult job, but I feel that a lot of transit and transportation departments are dominated by engineers and have very few other specialists working to understand how to make the best system. However, I do think a lot of transit agencies are beginning to understand this and are looking at things a bit differently. The whole idea of transportation demand management is a step away from technical solutions and supply-focused transportation, which has dominated the field for too long. Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating eliminating engineers from the process, I just think their expertise needs to be supplemented by some other specialists.

[Vascilli]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

there is one annual pass on calgary Transit

It's for seniors and it's like $35 per year

By the time I'm a senior $35 probably won't buy a can of beer.

[mooky]

On annual passes,

I can only say that with current infrastructure and logistics, its probably too much for the to administer given a (reasonably) low demand.

Do they use 1 yearly pass, or 12 monthly passes they pre-mail you (or you pick up at 7-11 or the downtown 7th ave Transit store?)

If they offer annual passes at 7-11, how many will end up stolen? A few, but they add up, and are untraceable in there current format, same goes if you lose them yourself. (It's not so big an issue if you lose a month pass, but if they sell 12x passes at 7-11 that becomes another logistics nightmare and even more prone to a pass here and there going buh-bye. I know they do lottery checks, but for the amount of money that 7-11 (and Mac's) make off passes, its not worth it for them to even help Calgary Transit out in this regard.

If they change to a new smart-card type system all this goes away and even with low demand it becomes a much easier thing to implement. I certainly hope they do, but I can understand why now they don't..... I mean, Calgary transit can't even get there act together to get ticket machines to give change or even just install change machines beside the ticket machines

[freeweed]

Makes me think of another thing I haven't mentioned yet: why isn't it possible to purchase all 12 months at once, as separate monthly passes? It mitigates just about all the issues with the huge dollar amount on one pass (theft, etc).

Again, the only conceivable reason I can think of is that they want the freedom to raise fares mid-year. Hell, we see this behaviour in Toronto every time they raise fares, when people madly scramble to stock up on tokens. TTC puts in limits to stop that.

And I have a hard time believing monthly passes are actually only printed on a per-month basis - although the fact that the cost only shows up on the pass by about March or so makes me wonder if they do in fact do this. It would be cheaper for CT to have all 12 months printed at once, but probably offset by the once-in-a-decade mid-year fare hike.

Here's hoping the smartcards do away with my whining.

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Makes me think of another thing I haven't mentioned yet: why isn't it possible to purchase all 12 months at once, as separate monthly passes? It mitigates just about all the issues with the huge dollar amount on one pass (theft, etc).

Again, the only conceivable reason I can think of is that they want the freedom to raise fares mid-year. Hell, we see this behaviour in Toronto every time they raise fares, when people madly scramble to stock up on tokens. TTC puts in limits to stop that.

And I have a hard time believing monthly passes are actually only printed on a per-month basis - although the fact that the cost only shows up on the pass by about March or so makes me wonder if they do in fact do this. It would be cheaper for CT to have all 12 months printed at once, but probably offset by the once-in-a-decade mid-year fare hike.

Here's hoping the smartcards do away with my whining.

Way back when - when I was attending the U of A, that's how they handled the student transit passes. You got 8 monthly passes in September that took you through the school year.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Makes me think of another thing I haven't mentioned yet: why isn't it possible to purchase all 12 months at once, as separate monthly passes? It mitigates just about all the issues with the huge dollar amount on one pass (theft, etc).

Again, the only conceivable reason I can think of is that they want the freedom to raise fares mid-year. Hell, we see this behaviour in Toronto every time they raise fares, when people madly scramble to stock up on tokens. TTC puts in limits to stop that.

And I have a hard time believing monthly passes are actually only printed on a per-month basis - although the fact that the cost only shows up on the pass by about March or so makes me wonder if they do in fact do this. It would be cheaper for CT to have all 12 months printed at once, but probably offset by the once-in-a-decade mid-year fare hike.

Here's hoping the smartcards do away with my whining.

If they issued the passes that far in advance, and used the same design as the monthly passes, the counterfeiting issue comes up again.

[bigcanuck]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

If they issued the passes that far in advance, and used the same design as the monthly passes, the counterfeiting issue comes up again.

Though I could easily use a colour copier and copy a co-workers monthly pass today and get away with it. I have never, I repeat never, had anyone examine my monthly pass on either the train or bus - it's always just a glance without me even having to remove it from my wallet.

(not that I condone or endorse any of the above activities)

[freeweed]

Yeah, I find it hard to believe counterfeiting is a serious concern with transit tickets or passes. I'm sure it happens (hell, considering how trivial it is, I'm sure it happens LOTS) but I just don't see the market for it on a large scale.

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[Vascilli]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

8. Have 2-3 person crews at the terminus stations (M-W, Crowfoot, and Somerset) doing a quick run-through of the trains as they come in picking up papers, pop bottles, coffee cups, etc. and doing spot-cleaning. Cleanliness goes a long way. It sucks when you take the train at 2 PM and see a newspaper stuffed in the crack of a seat and an empty water bottled dancing up and down the aisle that you know have been there since 7:30 AM.

I wouldn't mind doing this during the summer for typical union wages.

[srperrycgy]

Not a bad idea, especially at Stampede time.

[Vascilli]

Problem (For me) is I'll probably be working at Stampede. So maybe I could do it before or after my typical evening shift. Man I'd be tired.

That would be a pretty nice job, come to think of it. An excuse to hang around the LRT, I'd get a free pass, and it's an excuse for me to buy some highvis clothes.

[Ferreth]

Regarding the discussion about lack of yearly passes, I received a reply back from Calgary Transit today. I'm pleased they took the time to craft a detailed response - for the most part it covers the points brought up here, along with one I don't believe was mentioned - the problem of people buying "out of sync" ie; what if you buy outside of the beginning of the year. The pro-rating option mentioned would work; you'd just end up buying for the remaining time of the year. What I found interesting is the implication that CT only would raise the price only at the beginning of the year - wondering if that's policy.

Here is the response in full:

Thank you for contacting the Calgary Transit website with your inquiry regarding Yearly Transit Passes. As part of our normal review of fare products we have discussed the implementation of a yearly pass previously and have decided against it for the following reasons.

Demand for a yearly transit pass is very low, probably due to the price that would be charged for the pass. Twelve monthly passes are currently worth $1,023.00 and this is quite a large investment. Since lost or stolen passes are not replaced, it would be quite costly should this happen to someone.

Administratively, it would be more costly to produce the pass. Better, more durable, materials would be required, and the print costs to produce small quantities would escalate the unit cost quite a bit. If a data base were created and picture ID placed on passes to deter theft or reuse of lost passes this would also add to the cost significantly for such things as software, hardware, and staffing time.

Another point to consider is the period of time that the pass would be valid. If passes were valid from January to December each year, which would put the sales period in December, then passes would have to be sold at a prorated price each month thereafter. If yearly passes were to be sold at any time during the year, twelve blocks of passes would be printed, each block beginning with a different month of the year. This would lead to a potential revenue loss if the price of the monthly pass changed in January and a customer purchased a pass in September.

Lastly, with the increased value of the pass, it would create a security risk making it more appealing to steal or counterfeit these passes.

Monthly passes are available at over 250 locations throughout the city including all Macs, 7- Eleven, Safeway, and CO-OP stores. Passes may also be purchased on line through the City's On-Line Store located at www.calgary.ca and can be delivered to your home. Passes are available approximately ten days before the end of the month for the next month so you shouldn't need to wait in line each month.

In addition, Calgary Transit is working towards implementing an electronic fare payment system for all bus and Ctrain service using a “smart card” type medium (enabled with an electronic chip). This system is still in its planning stage and the earliest it will be implemented will be 2011. Once it is implemented, customers, if they choose to take advantage of it, can pay for their monthly passes, tickets, etc. on their smart card using the Internet, telephone, or can top it up at certain machines. There will also be an option of creating an account.

Your comments will be forwarded to the department responsible for fare option design so that they are aware of what Calgary Transit users, such as yourself are expressing.

Shelley Desjardins, Calgary Transit
Response on behalf of Cathy Baker
Customer Service Report Coordinator, Calgary Transit

[freeweed]

Interesting, and thanks for sharing. I wonder why ski hills have none of these problems with annual passes (similar costs and logistics involved).

I didn't know you could order online and have them delivered - that's awesome, I should look into that. Unless they don't sell them more than 10 days before the end of the month, and Canada Post decides to be slow. The whole "we sell them 10 days before the end of the month" is hardly what I'd call the most convenient way possible but I guess for people that never go out of town, it works.

Speaking of passes, I notice there's no price printed on the March ones. Hopefully they start again this year or tax time is gonna be a hoot. Unless I missed it, of course.

[mersar]

You can order them online but the system works as: "Customers ordering monthly passes after the 10th day of the month will be sent the pass for the NEXT month. For example, if you order a pass on January 11th, you will be sent the February pass."

[mooky]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Speaking of passes, I notice there's no price printed on the March ones. Hopefully they start again this year or tax time is gonna be a hoot. Unless I missed it, of course.

Not really an issue. Keep your passes and Revenue Canada could take two seconds to find out the cost of a monthly pass and multiply by 12. If you file online who cares anyways, unless you get auditted.

It's in my mind in the same ball park as the Safeway or Superstore or Futureshop putting a highlighter through your receipt without even checking what's in your bag, I mean really, my six bags of groceries are not stolen in nice clean bags; in the same regards, the chance of you having stolen transit passes and using them for tax purposes are pretty darn slim

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by mooky

Not really an issue. Keep your passes and Revenue Canada could take two seconds to find out the cost of a monthly pass and multiply by 12. If you file online who cares anyways, unless you get auditted.

It's in my mind in the same ball park as the Safeway or Superstore or Futureshop putting a highlighter through your receipt without even checking what's in your bag, I mean really, my six bags of groceries are not stolen in nice clean bags; in the same regards, the chance of you having stolen transit passes and using them for tax purposes are pretty darn slim

Can't disagree but I never put common sense and government bureaucracy in the same sentence.

The last time I got audited the transit deduction didn't exist so I have no idea how lenient they'd be if you didn't have full receipts for each pass. I always just grab a receipt in January and x12, figuring in the worst case I might be stuck with a small tax bill. It's just not worth worrying about all these receipts for such a small deduction, and a low probability of being audited.

On the store thing - quite frankly they can kiss my rear end anyway. From what I can tell, they're legally not allowed to do bag checks and have to actually detect you shoplifting in order to inspect anything on your person. Same goes for those electronic sensors, when they go off I personally just walk through them. I've never once been challenged and if I ever was, I'd laugh in their face and tell them to call the police if they wanted to charge me with shoplifting, with zero evidence. Those things go off all the time for no reason.

I've always wondered at the specific legalities in Canada; many people in the US have analyzed this to death and that's what the consensus is - stores have zero legal right to force you to do a bag check, or detain you without evidence. All they can do is kick you out of the store, which hey, I was conveniently trying to leave anyway. From what I've read, this has been confirmed many times by the courts.

Always wondered what's going to happen when I finally push it too far.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ They can only do a citizen's arrest if it is an indictable offence, and pretty much the only thing they can push without police is 'assault by trespass'. No bag checks, unless you implicitly (or explicitly) consent to it.

[mooky]

Originally Posted by freeweed

On the store thing - quite frankly they can kiss my rear end anyway. From what I can tell, they're legally not allowed to do bag checks and have to actually detect you shoplifting in order to inspect anything on your person. Same goes for those electronic sensors, when they go off I personally just walk through them. I've never once been challenged and if I ever was, I'd laugh in their face and tell them to call the police if they wanted to charge me with shoplifting, with zero evidence. Those things go off all the time for no reason.

I've always wondered at the specific legalities in Canada; many people in the US have analyzed this to death and that's what the consensus is - stores have zero legal right to force you to do a bag check, or detain you without evidence. All they can do is kick you out of the store, which hey, I was conveniently trying to leave anyway. From what I've read, this has been confirmed many times by the courts.

Always wondered what's going to happen when I finally push it too far.

Legally speaking, in a good number (I can't confirm all) of states stores have absolutely no power to stop you and check your bags, though they do creating ACLU lawsuits as a result. I also don't know what the rules are in Canada, but I've always been under assumption we have roughly the same laws in place.

Whenever I try to press the issue, my wife tells me to not, and perhaps shes right its not worth the possible arrest and hassle for bypassing a bag check person, or not stopping if some piece of merchandise you bought was not deactivated properly beeps the sensor ass you leave the store... but as a personal point of asserting my rights, I've always wanted to test how far I could take it.

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.