HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     
Welcome to the SkyscraperPage Forum

Since 1999, the SkyscraperPage Forum has been one of the most active skyscraper enthusiast communities on the web. The global membership discusses development news and construction activity on projects from around the world, alongside discussions on urban design, architecture, transportation and many other topics. Welcome!

You are currently browsing as a guest. Register with the SkyscraperPage Forum and join this growing community of skyscraper enthusiasts. Registering has benefits such as fewer ads, the ability to post messages, private messaging and more.

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Transportation

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #81  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2010, 4:41 PM
M II A II R II K's Avatar
M II A II R II K M II A II R II K is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 34,246
While high speed rail languishes in the US, it booms in China and beyond


Mar 23rd 2010

by Bob Morris



Read More: http://caivn.org/article/2010/03/23/...ina-and-beyond

Quote:
In 2008, California voters approved a $9.4 billion proposition to build a High Speed Rail [HSR] network in California. The trains will reach speeds over 200 mph. Construction may start as soon as 2011 and will take years to complete.

This could be a real boon to commuters who live along the HSR line. Imagine if you lived in Palmdale and worked in downtown Los Angeles. The trip would take 27 minutes rather than a grueling 90 minutes (or more) by car. Would HSR lead to sprawl growing up beside it, and people leaving the city and living on the outskirts? The California High Speed Blog argues if development is done intelligently, then sprawl is avoided, citing Portland as a successful example of how to do it.* The key thing is to encourage urban density, enact anti-sprawl regulations, make it easy to get to the outlying HSR stations, and make the stations attractive with plenty of available parking in garages.

Sounds like a great idea, right? Well, as you might expect, some of those who live leave near the proposed lines are doing everything they can to block it, especially a few communities of the super-wealthy in the Palo Alto area. Put it underground or re-route it, they say. We don’t want to see, hear, or feel the vibrations from it, even if this kills the project by making it too expensive. While they may have legitimate concerns, it’s clear that a well-funded few can block most anything from happening by tying it up in endless court battles.

Meanwhile, in a gigantic visionary project, China plans to expand their high speed rail to Europe. They already have the best, most extensive HSR in the world. Now they want to build multiple lines through numerous countries connecting it to Europe, in what will no doubt be the biggest infrastructure project in history. Apparently they think it can be done. Imagine what it could accomplish once completed. It would be a giant grid linking Asia to Europe.
__________________
ASDFGHJK
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #82  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2010, 2:43 AM
JDRCRASH's Avatar
JDRCRASH JDRCRASH is online now
Skyscraper Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Gabriel Valley
Posts: 7,724
I'm not sure it will be worth connecting Asia to Europe. As in the US, there maybe limits to how efficient HSR stacks up to air travel over long distances.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #83  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2010, 3:28 AM
BTinSF BTinSF is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: San Francisco & Tucson
Posts: 24,080
The thread being about US high speed rail, not Chinese, we return to the topic:

Quote:
High-speed rail halting in San Jose wouldn't change Peninsula impact, Caltrain says
By Mike Rosenberg
San Mateo County Times
Posted: 03/23/2010 08:49:37 PM PDT
Updated: 03/24/2010 08:14:31 AM PDT

In a blow to high-speed-rail critics lobbying for the train line from Los Angeles to end in San Jose, Caltrain officials said Tuesday that the idea would require the same Peninsula track expansion while harming local commuter service and stripping the agency of funding.

For riders to take the bullet train from Southern California to San Jose and transfer to an express Caltrain to San Francisco — as some critics and planners have proposed — Caltrain would have to add tracks or eliminate commute service to accommodate them, said Bob Doty, Caltrain's joint high-speed-rail program director.

As a result, whether high-speed rail runs to San Jose or San Francisco, the impact on Peninsula residents and businesses — namely property taking, noise and aesthetics — would be virtually the same. But were it to stop in San Jose, train service would be longer and less convenient, and Doty said the project would cost about the same but have fewer funding sources.

"I just think people think that if high-speed rail stops in San Jose, we can just use what we have today, and there's just no way," Doty said. "It's one of these closed loop arguments; I just don't know how you do it."

Despite the obstacles, residents and officials along the tracks continue to hope that the bullet train will connect to electrified Caltrain service in San Jose, called the "hybrid" option, instead of the current plan to run high-speed rail directly to San Francisco. High-speed-rail planners will release a list of likely Bay Area track alignments within two weeks.

Palo Alto Mayor Pat Burt, a member of the Peninsula Cities Consortium formed last year over high-speed-rail concerns, said his group has pushed for the hybrid option.

"I think it's a possibility, and it might take several different forms," said Burt. The consortium also includes Burlingame, Belmont, Menlo Park and Atherton . . . .

While state planners have said the hybrid option may be possible, Rod Diridon, a California High-Speed Rail Authority board member from San Jose, said it would violate Proposition 1A. The $9.95 billion bond voters approved in November 2008 to launch the $42.6 billion project stipulated that the train connect to San Francisco's Transbay Terminal.

"We must build the system to the Transbay Terminal, or not use Prop. 1A funds, and, of course, we need Prop. 1A funds," Diridon said. The attorney general's office recently advised the authority not to end the project in San Jose, he said . . . .
Source: http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_14744763?nclick_check=1


San Jose station area rendering via CAHSR
Source: http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2010/0...o_any_good.php
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #84  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2010, 2:52 PM
M II A II R II K's Avatar
M II A II R II K M II A II R II K is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 34,246
Key to High Speed Rail's Success Is in The Details, Leaders Say


March 24, 2010

By Tom Palmer



Read More: http://www.theledger.com/article/201...ders-Say&tc=ar

Quote:
LAKELAND | If high-speed rail and all of the planned transit connections that will make it work effectively are to succeed, Central Florida's leaders have to get the details and the facts right. That was the message business and civic leaders from Tampa to Orlando heard Wednesday morning at The Lakeland Center during the first of three planned briefings this spring on the status of the Florida high-speed rail project.

Work is under way to develop the first phase between downtown Tampa and Orlando International Airport following the award of $1.25 billion in federal stimulus funds in January by President Barack Obama. Some construction work may begin as early as next March, said Nazih Haddad, chief operating officer of the Florida Department of Transportation's Florida Rail Enterprise.

The line is expected to begin operations in 2015.

He said federal scrutiny of this project will be "strong" because this is the first high-speed rail project in the United States. That scrutiny will include a consultant hired by the Federal Railroad Administration, Haddad said.

But now that high-speed rail is moving from a concept to reality in Florida, some things have changed, key officials told the crowd of about 150 that attended the briefing. "We need to get the details right," Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio said, explaining that means how people get to their destinations once they get off at the high-speed rail station.
__________________
ASDFGHJK
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #85  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2010, 3:05 PM
Prahaboheme Prahaboheme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,403
Orlando high speed rail renderings (including the super-station at OIA which will connect commuter and high speed rail with downtown Orlando):















Reply With Quote
     
     
  #86  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2010, 3:33 PM
pyropius pyropius is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Williamsburg, VA
Posts: 272
In Orlando, will the HSR be able to eventually share the commuter rail tracks to downtown?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #87  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2010, 4:44 PM
Prahaboheme Prahaboheme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,403
^No -- however, if high speed rail is eventually extended North to JAX it would make a stop in downtown Orlando at the Lynx Central Station (bus and commuter rail). High speed rail will make a direct connection with commuter rail at OIA, which will go directly to downtown.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #88  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2010, 5:46 PM
Gordo's Avatar
Gordo Gordo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: San Francisco, CA/Jackson Hole, WY/Bellevue, WA
Posts: 3,727
I'm a bit confused - where does the picture below fit in? Near the airport? Another HSR station?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prahaboheme View Post
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #89  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2010, 10:55 PM
Prahaboheme Prahaboheme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,403
^That is the Orange County Convention Center stop, which is just North and out of picture. Seaworld is across the street.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #90  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2010, 11:13 PM
Jasonhouse Jasonhouse is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 23,156
^Not really... The OCCC is to the WNW on this picture, and Seaworld is to the WSW, across the Beeline and across I-Drive. Neither are what I would call 'walking distance', which makes the station's location a bit odd imo.

__________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge".
Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #91  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2010, 1:36 AM
BTinSF BTinSF is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: San Francisco & Tucson
Posts: 24,080
Quote:
March 22, 2010
Stimulus Plan for Rail Line Shows System of Weak Links
By MICHAEL COOPER

TAMPA — The drive from Orlando to Tampa takes only 90 minutes or so. Despite the short distance, the Obama administration awarded Florida $1.25 billion in stimulus money to link the cities with a fast train to help kick off its efforts to bring high-speed rail service to the United States.

The Florida train would indeed be high speed — as fast as 168 miles per hour. But because the trains would make five stops along the 84-mile route, the new service would shave only about half an hour off the trip.

Time-pressed passengers may also find themselves frustrated at the end of their trip. Neither city is known for great public transportation, so travelers may discover that they have taken a fast train to a slow bus.

Proponents of high-speed rail worry that the new line, which is scheduled to be up and running in 2015, might hurt rather than help their cause, if it comes to be seen as little more than an expensive way to whisk tourists from Orlando International Airport to Walt Disney World, which is slated to get its own stop.

Even Representative John L. Mica, a Republican whose district in northeast Florida stops about 20 miles short of the proposed line, has questioned whether his state was the best choice to receive some of the $8 billion that was set aside in the stimulus act for high-speed rail . . . .

Tourists who try to use public transportation, rather than renting a car, may find themselves seeing sights they would rather avoid and missing some they would like to see. As the Frommer’s travel guide to Tampa advises, “Like most other Florida destinations, it’s virtually impossible to see Tampa’s major sights and enjoy its best restaurants without a car.”

A couple of tourists from Chilliwack, British Columbia — Allana Strickland and her teenage daughter, Sarah McKenzie — learned this firsthand recently. When they took the public bus from Tampa to the Salvador Dali Museum in nearby St. Petersburg, a major draw in the region, they found themselves on a journey that lasted more than two and half hours to go less than 20 miles . . . .

. . . when America 2050, a planning group, ranked potential routes last year in a report called “Where High Speed Rail Works Best,” the Tampa to Orlando route did not even make the cut, because the group found that cities should be at least 100 miles apart to capture riders.

The planned route from Tampa through Orlando to Miami did make the list, though: it was ranked 100th among potential routes in the United States . . . .

In the short term, experts predict that up to a third of the train’s ridership would be for the 19-mile trip between the Orlando airport and Walt Disney World, which has agreed to donate land for a stop . . . .
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/23/us/23train.htm
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #92  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2010, 2:26 AM
Prahaboheme Prahaboheme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonhouse View Post
^Not really... The OCCC is to the WNW on this picture, and Seaworld is to the WSW, across the Beeline and across I-Drive. Neither are necessarily what I would call 'walking distance', which makes the station's location a bit odd imo.

SeaWorld is not really within walking distance -- OCCC is, and with the improved long term plan to link urban hotels between the HSR and OCCC, it should make that walk easy. I agree, though, it's a bit odd that it'll surround on and off ramps.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #93  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2010, 6:07 AM
Jasonhouse Jasonhouse is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 23,156
^I know that area pretty well... I promise you, you're getting the scale off... Go check the path distance in Google Earth if you have it. I bet it's 2/3rds of a mile or so from where the HSR platform would be, to an actual entrance of the OCCC on foot. And I'm talking about the annex. Going to the main hall on foot would be closer to a mile. (and surely over a mile if the air conditioned skywalk is used)

Any planner involved in this project who is hoping to make the typical conventioneer walk that distance (especially in challenging weather) is incompetent, and should be relieved of their duties immediately.
__________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge".
Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #94  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2010, 1:39 PM
Prahaboheme Prahaboheme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,403
^I know the area, too, having lived in Orlando for 20 years. I'm not getting the scale off, I don't need Google earth.

It would be better having the rail station on top of the convention center, yes, but that is not possible. Therefore, the plan to extend Canadian Court to Universal Boulevard, and create a longterm urban plan that will extend from SeaWorld South to Universal Studio North seems like a better plan overall. Notice that in the conceptual all new development is backed up to parking garages over parking lots, and all development is at street level. Urban planning 101.

The future proposal for a light rail line is also expected to go right through the high speed terminal (look closely and you'll see it there) which will have a direct stop at the convention center. It's easier to move light rail in and out of tight spots than it is high speed rail.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #95  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2010, 4:11 PM
Jasonhouse Jasonhouse is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 23,156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prahaboheme View Post
^I know the area, too, having lived in Orlando for 20 years. I'm not getting the scale off, I don't need Google earth.
Maybe I should have mentioned before that I've done a couple dozen land surveys in the exact neighborhood being discussed, including parcels between the proposed station and the OCCC. I've kind of got an eye for this sort of thing.

Here's some Google Earth snapshots for you...





screenshots from Google Earth


These distances are not acceptable for someone on foot. Well established precedent tells us that almost nobody is willing to walk over 1/2mile from a transit stop to/from their destination, and studies centric to Florida actually peg the distance at more like 1/4mile... As you can see, the proposed HSR location would involve walking distances considerably beyond that.

So my original point remains, the OCCC is not within walking distance of the proposed station. I'm sure there will be a shuttle set up, but with this kind of distance, they could just as well do a monorail up to Universal and down to Sea World. Or better yet, move the station down closer to I-4, in behind the Rosen Centre.
__________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge".
Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #96  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2010, 6:13 PM
Gordo's Avatar
Gordo Gordo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: San Francisco, CA/Jackson Hole, WY/Bellevue, WA
Posts: 3,727
^I would tend to say that walking distances from an HSR station are not equivalent to the amount of walking that people will do from a regular old "transit" stop. People will walk a mile or more within an airport, for example, with little complaining.

I don't know the area, so I'm not saying that this is necessarily an area where longer distances would be tolerated, but we're not talking about a normal transit stop that the same people would be using every day.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #97  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2010, 7:50 PM
Jasonhouse Jasonhouse is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 23,156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordo View Post
^I would tend to say that walking distances from an HSR station are not equivalent to the amount of walking that people will do from a regular old "transit" stop.
Studies done in Florida consistently show residents willing to walk (due to a variety of factors) a significantly shorter distance than your typical 'American' will walk for the same type of transit. Furthermore, every one of the HSR stations on this line are going to be right up against a busy interstate, and corresponding arterial highways. As we all know, these are both huge psychological barriers for peds. Additionally, this station is like 6 minutes from the airport station and Disney station, where much of the traffic will come from. Both of those stations also require fairly long walking, which means the quick turnaround makes people even less willing to walk when they get off at this station. (and vice versa). You gotta remember, most of these people are going to have luggage or shopping bags, or stuff to tend to the kids.


Quote:
People will walk a mile or more within an airport, for example, with little complaining.
People who walk a mile in an airport most certainly don't like it, it's just that they have no other choice but to walk if they want to get through a terminal that gives them access to the entire planet. This little HSR line in Florida isn't going to be a regional draw like in Europe where some people may be willing to walk over a kilometer to an HSR station(which is still a shorter distance than what's being discussed here, but anyways), because that station gets them to many places all over the continent. This is going to be much more like a local commuter line, until it at least gets extended to Miami (which will hopefully be asap).
__________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge".
Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #98  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2010, 8:15 PM
Gordo's Avatar
Gordo Gordo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: San Francisco, CA/Jackson Hole, WY/Bellevue, WA
Posts: 3,727
^Fair enough. Like I mentioned, I don't know the area, and your point about it being a glorified commuter line (at least to start) is definitely true.

I just know that in the case of HSR in California (which, while it won't be completely analogous to European systems, will be much closer from the get go than Florida's will be), I'll be happy to walk more than a half mile at either end if it keeps me from having to deal with airports or freeways, and the ridership studies show the same.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #99  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2010, 12:07 AM
BTinSF BTinSF is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: San Francisco & Tucson
Posts: 24,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonhouse View Post
every one of the HSR stations on this line are going to be right up against a busy interstate, and corresponding arterial highways. As we all know, these are both huge psychological barriers for peds.
Several BART stations are in the median of highways like this one in the median of I-580 (a 10 or 12 lane freeway). It doesn't seem to deter people as long as they can enter by going under (or over) the traffic:


Source: http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?19730

By then I'll probably be using a motorized wheelchair, but I'll be joining Gordo doing what it takes to get to the HSR station wherever it is.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #100  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2010, 1:46 AM
Jasonhouse Jasonhouse is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 23,156
^On the FL line, only the Lakeland station will be in the middle. The others will be offset to the side, making getting to the other side of the highway a bit more of a challenge.
__________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge".
Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
   
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Transportation
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:35 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.