Ottawa Via Rail lands to be developed

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Franky

I don't know about the distance requirements - there are houses fairly close to the tracks all along Riverside - maybe not that close? All the CP hotels: Chateau Laurier, Royal York etc... were connected to the rail lines, though maybe not as close. The first story or two could be retail space adding vertical separation.

Yes, Trainyards integration would be good.

The Trainyards development was probably the most wasteful development ever in Ottawa. What were they thinking when they approved that?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

The Trainyards development was probably the most wasteful development ever in Ottawa. What were they thinking when they approved that?

The same thing they were thinking when the approved the Kanata Centrum, or that god-awful "town centre" in Orleans with the bloody drive-through bank.

[toaster]

What's wrong with an outdoor type mall? Some people like to get everything without driving around town, but don't like the idea of being stuck in a mall. And a Wal Mart in the center/east part of town was probably a good idea, although they probably should have went with a Super-Center there, imo. The no Grocery store at Trainyards is a bit of a turn off, I'm wondering if that will come in the next phase.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by toaster

What's wrong with an outdoor type mall? Some people like to get everything without driving around town, but don't like the idea of being stuck in a mall. And a Wal Mart in the center/east part of town was probably a good idea, although they probably should have went with a Super-Center there, imo. The no Grocery store at Trainyards is a bit of a turn off, I'm wondering if that will come in the next phase.

There's nothing wrong with an outdoor type mall.

There's a lot wrong with them, though, when they turn their backs to the street, are oriented towards private automobile access and do a poor job of accomodating (let alone being oriented towards) other forms of transport, and do not take into account the amenities needed by people who don't drive their own private automobile to do their shopping.

The official plan calls for less of this kind of thinking, but we keep getting more of it.

[lrt's friend]

It is particularly bad when you have to drive from shop to shop in the same outdoor mall. These bloody places are spread out way too much. That's why you are seeing the trend of stores selling everything and when it isn't there main business, the prices are inflated, because its offered as a convenience, so you don't have to drive to the other end of the outdoor mall.

Trainyards is crap. Went once, won't go back.

[IntoTheCore]

Originally Posted by toaster

What's wrong with an outdoor type mall? Some people like to get everything without driving around town, but don't like the idea of being stuck in a mall. And a Wal Mart in the center/east part of town was probably a good idea, although they probably should have went with a Super-Center there, imo. The no Grocery store at Trainyards is a bit of a turn off, I'm wondering if that will come in the next phase.

I've got two issues with these types of sites in Ottawa, in particular:

- pedestrians are an after-thought: to walk from the north section to the south section of the Trainyards site, it's all parking lots and roads

- for most of the year, customers will drive from store to store within the complex due to the cold; some will drive even in warm weather; contrast this with indoor malls where people will generally park just once

In giving up the customer-oriented advantages of an indoor mall, stores gain the advantage of having larger signs to pull in customers. Woot.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by IntoTheCore

In giving up the customer-oriented advantages of an indoor mall, stores gain the advantage of having larger signs to pull in customers. Woot.

As long as the sign is in the officially-approved font, doesn't hang over anything, is parallel to the "street" so you can't see it from any distance, and doesn't consist of a cow on your roof.

[toaster]

It's no secret that the big box format has never been friendly to people without a vehicle, not only in Ottawa, but in every city. Furthermore, Trainyards is serviced by both routes 121 and 125, so if someone without a vehicle can get there. I've gone there by bus several times. And what's wrong with a little walking? People are too lazy as to walk accross a parking lot? Come on. That's ridiculous, and at the same time evident in our Canada's rising obesity rate. Also, I agree that big box/strip malls should face the road, but when your in an area were both sides of your area are as run down as those around Trainyards, I don't blame them to face everything inward. It is definitely the highlight of that area, in terms of aesthetic appeal.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

The same thing they were thinking when the approved the Kanata Centrum, or that god-awful "town centre" in Orleans with the bloody drive-through bank.

At least those are out in the suburbs, not right near the centre of the city. But they are definitely not in the best places for such developments. Kanata Centrum was more poorly planned than anything though.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by toaster

And what's wrong with a little walking?

Nothing. But walking across parking lots and roadways is uncomfortable and unsafe, and walking past buildings that are set way back from the road is psychologically unpleasant.

All of those things can be avoided, and still accomodate the car people. But when the cars are put first and foremost, it is pretty well impossible to remedy the situation later, without flattening the buildings and starting over.

Also, I agree that big box/strip malls should face the road, but when your in an area were both sides of your area are as run down as those around Trainyards, I don't blame them to face everything inward. It is definitely the highlight of that area, in terms of aesthetic appeal.

Turning them "out" instead of "in" could have kick-started the process of eventually improving the visual appeal. (Ditto that god-awful "College Square" crap on Baseline).

Turning in only exacerbates the aesthetic problem. It's Greber thinking again; this so-called city is full of it.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

At least those are out in the suburbs, not right near the centre of the city. But they are definitely not in the best places for such developments. Kanata Centrum was more poorly planned than anything though.

Wherever they are, they are crap and the make a mockery of forty years worth of official plans that give lip-service, and nothing else, to the need to make the city less auto-centric.

It doesn't help that the city's own recent public facilities have the same flaws.

[canadave]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Nothing. But walking across parking lots and roadways is uncomfortable and unsafe, and walking past buildings that are set way back from the road is psychologically unpleasant.

Yeah, I worked at a place on Belfast last summer, and the walk to and through the Trainyards was pretty brutal whenever I went there. There's absolutely no accommodation for pedestrians, even around bus stops, and taking the most logical routes from point A to point B often involves cutting across landscaping features or dodging traffic. It's a terribly suburban design, especially given how close it is to the downtown core.

[toaster]

Although it fairly close to downtown, it's not the easiest place to walk to. I think that was taken into account. Anyway, there are sidewalks with the Trainyards development (http://www.ottawatrainyards.com/imag..._ped_a_lrg.jpg) and the areas were the Bus stops are, it is paved in asphalt. I think people make it sound worse than it actually is.

[jeremy_haak]

Originally Posted by toaster

Although it fairly close to downtown, it's not the easiest place to walk to. I think that was taken into account. Anyway, there are sidewalks with the Trainyards development (http://www.ottawatrainyards.com/imag..._ped_a_lrg.jpg) and the areas were the Bus stops are, it is paved in asphalt. I think people make it sound worse than it actually is.

The pedestrian plan is basically just concerned with how to get people from the parking lot to the store. That's a pretty terrible plan.

[citizen j]

Until the city starts a concerted effort to integrate residential development and commercial/retail development, the problem of auto-dependence isn't going to be adequately addressed. Every square foot of retail space in the Trainyards should have multiple residential levels above it, and organized around streets, not parking lots. I realize I sound like a lunatic for thinking something like that might happen; call me optimistic.

[O-Town Hockey]

Originally Posted by citizen j

Until the city starts a concerted effort to integrate residential development and commercial/retail development, the problem of auto-dependence isn't going to be adequately addressed. Every square foot of retail space in the Trainyards should have multiple residential levels above it, and organized around streets, not parking lots. I realize I sound like a lunatic for thinking something like that might happen; call me optimistic.

It's called Lansdowne Live and look at the reaction it is causing. No one wants to move to an empty field near Riverside and Industrial only to live above a Walmart. OSEG is offering us the first decent integration of retail and residential that I have seen....ever and people are bursting aneurysms all over the place in the Glebe. The Via lands have a lot of potential given their proximity to downtown and I hope this is just the first draft of many (better)plans to come.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by citizen j

Until the city starts a concerted effort to integrate residential development and commercial/retail development, the problem of auto-dependence isn't going to be adequately addressed. Every square foot of retail space in the Trainyards should have multiple residential levels above it, and organized around streets, not parking lots. I realize I sound like a lunatic for thinking something like that might happen; call me optimistic.

Whatever happened to building neighbourhoods, with grids or semi-grids of streets, and with a main street running through it?

The builders say no one wants that. The house prices in the Glebe, Old Ottawa South, Westboro, Sandy Hill, etc., tend to debunk it.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

OSEG is offering us the first decent integration of retail and residential that I have seen....ever and people are bursting aneurysms all over the place in the Glebe.

Not only that, but the same people who criticize Lansdowne Live for being like the Kanata Centrum, turn around and demand the "open space" and setbacks and parking lots and random angles that would turn it into.... the Kanata Centrum!

(Compare how the same people who want neighbourhoods with wide streets and boulevarded sidewalks and lots of open space and big setbacks, want them so we can be "like Europe", oblivious to the fact that what they have described is Orleans or Barrhaven, not Soho or the Stare Mesto.

The Via lands have a lot of potential given their proximity to downtown and I hope this is just the first draft of many (better)plans to come.

Proximity to downtown?

[jeremy_haak]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Proximity to downtown?

They're quite close by transit. Distance doesn't just have to be measured in metres.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

They're quite close by transit. Distance doesn't just have to be measured in metres.

That's not the sort of proximity (and even then it's a dubious proximity) that's going to make much difference to how the land ends up being used... certainly not in this place that has yet to get transit-oriented development right.