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  #61  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 3:33 AM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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Please show me a current, bipatisan poll of Arizona residents and I'll happily start using those statistics.

The rest of the post was nonsensical? The part where I pointed out that calling those that disagree with you "Retarded, toothless, stupid xenophobes" to be immature? Or the part where I said that there's no point in panicking because Leftists are promoting boycotts? Or the part where I implied that Al Sharpton and Katie Couric are opportunistic buffoons?

Which part didn't make sense to you?
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  #62  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 3:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
Please show me a current, bipatisan poll of Arizona residents and I'll happily start using those statistics.
This poll shows the support is down to 52% as of the 4th, as more conventions and tourist groups cancel trips and more people understand the Bill Im sure that number will fall further.


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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
The part where I pointed out that calling those that disagree with you "Retarded, toothless, stupid xenophobes" to be immature?
It was immature, but there are certainly a lot of racist xenophones in your camp, that seems hard to disagree with.

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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
Or the part where I said that there's no point in panicking because Leftists are promoting boycotts?
What the hell does this even mean? Because boycotts are being planned by one end of the political spectrum they won't be successful? Are you paying any attention? Phoenix has already lost conventions and visitor groups, its already negatively effecting us.

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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
Or the part where I implied that Al Sharpton and Katie Couric are opportunistic buffoons?
What do they have to do with anything? You brought them up literally out of nowhere. I couldn't care less about the two of them.
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  #63  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 3:59 AM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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Let me take a different approach. You're obviously vehemently against SB 1070. Have you read the bill? If so, what specifically do you dislike about it (focused on the bill itself, not the resulting boycotts/economic loss to the state)? Are you upset with our Federal Government? Do you believe we should have an open border? If so, why?
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  #64  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 4:00 AM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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Originally Posted by phxbyrd View Post
Gaylord,

You have the average illegal paying something north of $4,200 a year in taxes and that includes children and senior citizens. I think that's way too much. I'm no economist but you also have to consider that in the legal economy there are tons of taxpayers that use relatively few government resources whereas a much higher percentage of illegals fall into a demographic of a frequent user of services.
Im not going to have a grown up discussion with someone who acts like a child. Both you and hoover have been warned, stop the personal attacks.
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  #65  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 4:04 AM
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There are about 10 states that are considering an AZ 1070 bill of their own right now, including our close neighbors UT, CO, TX...even MN.

55% of CO residents support AZ1070.
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  #66  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 4:05 AM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
Let me take a different approach. You're obviously vehemently against SB 1070. Have you read the bill? If so, what specifically do you dislike about it (focused on the bill itself, not the resulting boycotts/economic loss to the state)? Are you upset with our Federal Government? Do you believe we should have an open border? If so, why?
You kind of summed up my stance. I could give two shits about the bill, but it's effects are unwanted, therefore it is a failure. Either figure out how o get rid of the mexicans without it affectig our local economy and how we look to the rest of the world, or repeal it.

I think there is also an argument that the skins are so ingrained in the fabric of our city that we wouldnt know what to do without them. Being raised here, i would sure miss way too many things that are a part of my life if we didnt have any mexicans.
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  #67  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 4:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Vicelord John View Post
Im not going to have a grown up discussion with someone who acts like a child. Both you and hoover have been warned, stop the personal attacks.
Agreed. "Keep it Civil".

While we all share common ground on numerous issues, nobody is going to agree with everybody about everything. Just because there may be a differing of opinion's amongst us doesn't mean anybody is "wrong".
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  #68  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 4:09 AM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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Hoover,

I appreciate the link. However, the poll was actually conducted in late April, before further changes were implemented into the law. One major change included limiting the sentence for those found to be here illegally to a maximum fine of $100 and no more than 20 days in jail for a first offense, and no more than 30 days in jail for subsequent violations.

Also, the article states, "Among those polled in the days after she signed the law, 50 percent indicated they supported it and 41 percent opposed it." This does not back up your contention that the number of supporters are sinking like a rock... at all.

Finally, word is in today that TWELVE more states are discussing using Arizona's bill as a blueprint for themselves. So that will make 13 states for Lefties to decide they can't engage in business with. Smart move on their part (sarcasm)....

Last edited by PHX NATIVE 929; May 11, 2010 at 4:20 AM.
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  #69  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 4:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
Let me take a different approach. You're obviously vehemently against SB 1070. Have you read the bill?
Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
If so, what specifically do you dislike about it (focused on the bill itself, not the resulting boycotts/economic loss to the state)?
It seeks to enforce an existing bad Federal law and will undoubtedly lead to racial profiling, regardless of its intent. I do not trust our Law Enforcement officials enough for this not to happen. Furthermore it will cost Arizona a huge amount of money and take away Law Enforcement from other areas Id rather have them focusing on.

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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
Are you upset with our Federal Government?
Yes.

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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
Do you believe we should have an open border? If so, why?
Yes because we're a free country and free countries have nothing to fear from immigration. Immigration is the highest form of flattery and we should be thrilled that people will come here on bloodied knees, folded up in the backs of vans, running across deserts to get here. Immigration is basically a self regulated thing because migrant workers migrate to find jobs, if those jobs are all filled they'll stop coming.

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Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
There are about 10 states that are considering an AZ 1070 bill of their own right now, including our close neighbors UT, CO, TX...even MN.

55% of CO residents support AZ1070.
So if other people do bad things it makes it OK?

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Originally Posted by Vicelord John View Post
Both you and hoover have been warned, stop the personal attacks.
Hahahahah, you're a mod now are you? You're the king of personal attacks!


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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
Also, the article states, "Among those polled in the days after she signed the law, 50 percent indicated they supported it and 41 percent opposed it." This does not back up your contention that the number of supporters are sinking like a rock... at all.
So a drop of 20% doesn't constitute sinking like a rock to you? Lets see what the polls say a month from now.
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  #70  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 4:13 AM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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I may be the king of personal attacks, but not in a thread which carries a serious topic and brings out so many emotions. Know when it is appropriate... A thread that reads "keep it civil" is not the place.
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  #71  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 4:17 AM
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Regardless of the issue, I do believe that we live in a nation of laws. If we chose to enforce some laws and blatantly ignore some, what's the point?

AZ amended the law to clarify that one must have committed a crime in order to be asked of the status...what exactly is so bad about this?

I don't think anyone in here is against immigration, just illegal immigration. We are the world's melting pot. I haven't heard one person in favor of stopping immigration.
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  #72  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 4:19 AM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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I used your sources to show 50% in favor just after Brewer signed the bill to 52% in favor days later (even before positive changes were made to the bill).

Like it or not, not everyone that wants to immigrate here has good intentions. As you say, that's called the world of "reality". There MUST be a reasonable way to vet out those that wish to do harm to our nation. Jihad was not a major concern when a nifty phrase was inscripted on the Statue of Liberty. I'm guessing that inscription would have some slight tweaks made to it if it were done today.
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  #73  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 4:28 AM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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What message is sent to the immigrants that decided to RESPECT our nation's laws and go through the citizenship process the legal way- burdensome as it may have been- if you then say, "Ah heck, this is too much work, let's just open the floodgates"?

The good people that I know that respected our process feel a true sense of pride in EARNING their citizenship. They know it's a PRIVILEGE. For the most part, I don't think you'll see the same appreciation coming from those that got their start here by breaking our laws.

I would never show up in a foreign country and announce, "I'm here. Citizenship please." I'd respect their methods. Simple as that. Anything else falls into the entitlement era we're so sickeningly stuck in right now.
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  #74  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 4:29 AM
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CBS/NY Times Poll:

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/po...in;contentBody

Quote:
ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS …
Now 7/08 5/07 4/06
Very serious problem 65% 60% 61% 62%
Somewhat serious problem 24 29 30 25
Not a problem 10 10 7 12

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS
Strengthen economy 17%
Weaken economy 74

WHAT SHOULD BE DONE WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS NOW WORKING IN U.S.?
Allowed to stay/apply for citizenship 43%
Allowed to stay as guest workers 21
Be required to leave U.S. 32
^^^ 64% would want them to stay, just to be documented, so we know who is here and what they're doing here.
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  #75  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 4:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
Regardless of the issue, I do believe that we live in a nation of laws. If we chose to enforce some laws and blatantly ignore some, what's the point?
Some laws are bad, old and out dated and its the peoples job to ignore them in an effort to get rid of them. If you lived in 1940s Phoenix and you were a black guy or had a black friend and there was a 'no colors allowed' sign somewhere, wouldn't you ignore it? Or boycott that establishment or do everything you could reasonably do to usurp it?

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Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
AZ amended the law to clarify that one must have committed a crime in order to be asked of the status...what exactly is so bad about this?
Because its going to take time and resources to enforce. Further it leaves the door wide open for cops to pull people over on drummed up charges because of how they look. Unfortunately the Law Enforcement field has a long profile of racial profiling and general skeezy behavior, why would that change? You think a line in a Bill that says "Ok now behave yourselves boys" is going to stop some Hillbilly Sheriff in Douglas from racially profiling?

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Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
I don't think anyone in here is against immigration, just illegal immigration. We are the world's melting pot. I haven't heard one person in favor of stopping immigration.
This misses the whole point. Why do people immigrate illegally? Is it because they think its fun? Is it because they get their rocks off by breaking laws? That seems unlikely. Its because Americas immigration laws limit how many people can come in to a huge degree and are time consuming and expensive to navigate.

We don't need Government bureaucrats to set random numbers for how many immigrants we should have. Of course they come up with the wrong numbers, like I said, immigration is a self regulated issue. People won't come here for the most part if the jobs dry up.

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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
I used your sources to show 50% in favor just after Brewer signed the bill to 52% in favor days later (even before positive changes were made to the bill).
Thats within the margin of error.

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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
Like it or not, not everyone that wants to immigrate here has good intentions.
Yep not everyone, just the vast, vast majority. What are you worried about? Terrorist sneaking in through Mexico? All the 9/11 hijackers were here on legal visas. Most Mexicans just want to either come here to work and live, or to work and then go home, they're not crazy terrorists. The good that the hard working immigrants bring outweighs by a large margin any increased threat to security, and liberty should always outweigh security in any political debate.
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  #76  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 5:19 AM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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"... will undoubtedly lead to racial profiling, regardless of its intent. I do not trust our Law Enforcement officials enough for this not to happen."

Your lack of faith in our law enforcement officers is truly unfortunate. I'll borrow your point of how we shouldn't allow a few rotten apples to dent our trust in the "vast, vast majority" of upstanding officers.
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  #77  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 5:46 AM
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How short our memories are.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/s...7/daily19.html

Quote:
Congressional study shows illegal immigrants sap tax dollars
PHOENIX BUSINESS JOURNAL - BY Ty Young
Tuesday, December 18, 2007

A study by the U.S. Congressional Budget Office released Tuesday backs up the view that undocumented immigrants sap more tax dollars than they provide, especially in education, health care and law enforcement.
The study pulled together reports from the past five years, using data from sources including the Pew Hispanic Center, the Rand Corp., the U.S. Department of Homeland Security and various universities. The Congressional study also incorporated facts from states, including Arizona, but its authors acknowledged there was no aggregate estimate that could be applied to the entire country.

The report says that in 1990, 90 percent of undocumented immigrants primarily were in six states: California, Florida, Illinois, New Jersey, New York and Texas.
By 2004, undocumented immigrants had increased tenfold in other states, most notably Arizona, Georgia, North Carolina and Tennessee, according to statistics from the Pew Hispanic Center.
The report estimates there are 12 million undocumented immigrants nationwide. Of those, 60 percent are uninsured and 50 percent of the children are uninsured. Again using 2004 statistics from the Pew Hispanic Center the average income of undocumented immigrants was $27,400 while Americans earned $47,800. The difference puts undocumented immigrants in a lower tax bracket, thus reducing the amount of federal and state income taxes generated.
The study also showed that while undocumented workers represented just 5 percent of state and federal service costs, their tax revenue did not offset the amount spent by government. The authors of the study stated that, "the general consensus is that unauthorized immigrants impose a net cost on state and local budgets. However, no agreement exists as to the size of, or even the best way of measuring, that cost at a national level."
In education, which the study notes is the largest single expenditure in state and local budgets, multiple states reported 20 to 40 percent higher costs educating non-English speaking students, many of whom come from the homes of undocumented immigrant parents. Using New Mexico statistics from 2004 as a model, education spending on undocumented immigrants comprised $67 million of the state's $3 billion education budget.
The study estimates there are 53.3 million school-age children in the U.S., 2 million of whom are undocumented immigrants and another 3 million who are legal citizens, but whose parents are not.
Undocumented immigrants are more likely to access emergency rooms and urgent care facilities because most do not have health care, the study said. In Arizona and other border areas, states paid nearly $190 million in health care costs for undocumented immigrants in 2000, the study reported. The amount, which the study says likely has risen since then, represented one-quarter of all uncompensated health care costs in those states that year.
While the report found that undocumented immigrants are less likely to be incarcerated than American natives, it said states still bear a large cost for the legal process. Based on a report from the U.S./Mexico Border Counties Coalition from 2001, counties from the four states that border Mexico spent more than $108 million on law enforcement activities involving undocumented immigrants. San Diego County in California spent nearly half of that, with more than $50 million going into law enforcement activities involving undocumented immigrants.
For more: www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=8711.
Data from the CBO which is politically neutral and numbers tend to be conservative estimates.

Quote:
A study by the U.S. Congressional Budget Office released Tuesday backs up the view that undocumented immigrants sap more tax dollars than they provide, especially in education, health care and law enforcement.
Isn't this where we are having most of our budget problems?
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  #78  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 6:18 AM
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^Thats missing the point entirely. No one is saying Illegals are great, its that the system sucks and creates a situation where people have to come illegally. If the system was set up in such a way to allow vast numbers of people to immigrant here like the Market would bare, this wouldn't be an issue.

We need to think "What solution provides the maximum amount of freedom and liberty for the maximum amount of people" when we make laws, clearly limiting immigration to the small numbers we do doesn't meet that stipulation.

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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
"... will undoubtedly lead to racial profiling, regardless of its intent. I do not trust our Law Enforcement officials enough for this not to happen."

Your lack of faith in our law enforcement officers is truly unfortunate. I'll borrow your point of how we shouldn't allow a few rotten apples to dent our trust in the "vast, vast majority" of upstanding officers.
Welp when you've worked with Law Enforcement Officers for months at a time on various projects you can really be let down in how sleezy a lot of them are.
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  #79  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 9:37 AM
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I wrote for the Examiner and posted my most heartfelt thoughts on SB 1070 here...

http://www.examiner.com/x-13562-Phoe...-BS-er-SB-1070

...but you could also look at this from that "police state" and "racial profiling" perspective. Logically, the only way to avoid either is for illegal immigrants to abide by the honor system and volunteer their citizenship status. To avoid racial profiling, police would need proof of everyone's citizenship status. Check out the chick who played Jean Grey in the X-Men trilogy... she's quite convincing, but not American. Ditto Hugh Laurie from House. They're likely here on visas, but they can nail that American non-accent.

I'm a strange hybrid-American. My grandfather on my mother's side traced our ancestry in this country (or what would become it) to the early 1600s. My grandmother on my father's side moved here in 1954 from war-torn Vienna just weeks after giving birth to my father... also an immigrant. If I speak with my grandmother "auf Deutsch" in public do I need to have my papers ready? Or does she? Her accent is much, much, much more noticeable than Arnold Schwarzenegger's and she's lived in the US longer.

It's a stupid law and frankly... I posted in the main community awhile ago I was unhappy with my job. I toyed with the idea of opening my own business in Phoenix but after seeing how unlikely it would be that I would get funding for it, I had to give up that idea. Then, my boss had some axe to grind and fired me under questionable circumstances. I've been unemployed for two months and have been looking for work with much fervor in that time... well, actually I've been looking since December 2008, and have found nothing. That is to say, I've found things if I want to blow off the fact that I spent so much time and money in grad school, moved my ass to Asia for two years to get more work and international experience... and I find nothing but customer service horse shit prevalent in Phoenix.

Why is this relevant? The same legislature elected to sit around the Capitol just to jerk off enacted this. BUT, they enacted this while in the same session they dicked around instead of fixing the budget, despite pleas from the business community to get the state to change the laws and work to attract new businesses they did nothing, they ensured that women who have abortions must disclose a lot of personal information, they proposed a bill that would give adoption preferences to married couples and they actually passed a bill that would prevent human-animal hybrids in Arizona. So yeah... any mad scientists we previously had will have to take their lairs elsewhere. In the end, this November these same vote-whores will get re-elected.

In the end... when I lived overseas I recommended people come visit this city. I went to school out-of-state and sang its praises. And now, I could move to West Virginia and have the ability to look down on Arizona. I fully support this boycott and though I live in Phoenix now, I'm busting my ass off to get out as fast as possible. My partner loves ice cream... but we've agreed no Coldstone or Shamrock Farms. Our dog is like our child and we previously went to PetSmart to support a local business... but now we go to PetCo. I know there's little I can do to support these outsiders boycotting Arizona when I still live within it and pay sales taxes... but I think they need to sink this state and remind Arizona that THIS is not the proper path to immigration reform.

This place used to be home, but it's nothing more than a disappointment now.
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  #80  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 12:23 PM
phxbyrd phxbyrd is offline
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John,

I don't care if you wrote this is a serious thread and a place where no one should act like you. I think there all serious threads and I'm still not acting half as bad as you do so just respond to my point that went against yours and stop complaining about my "attacks" on you.
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