The SSP Downtown Population Research Project

[Cirrus]

Moving on to some other cities people have run the numbers for:

Boise and Salt Lake look great.

Phoenix and Austin I personally think each have one too many tracts. I would like to hear some other people's thoughts on the matter.

For Phoenix, the northern-most tract, #1130 from Roosevelt to McDowell, seems very suspect to me. It looks like mostly houses.

For Austin, the western-most tract, #12, seems like a difficult case. The southern part looks like downtown, but the northern part is houses. Since the western parts of tracts 11 and 7 have houses in them too, I propose we eliminate tract 12 and assume that the houses in tracts 11 and 7 offset the loss from 12's riverfront.

With these changes, Phoenix would be 6,851 and Austin would be 6,241.

Here are a couple of maps. Phoenix on top, Austin on bottom. Red is the areas I think should count as downtown, blue are the areas I think should be cut.

[J. Will]

If we exclude the areas niwell suggest, downtown Toronto's population drops to 118,433, but the population density rises quite a bit (well over 35k/square mile as of 2006) as the peripheral areas are of much lower density than the rest.

[Cirrus]

Can you provide a list of which tracts those are, and a link to where we can look up the info online (so we can also get Montreal and Vancouver - I'll add Canadian instructions to the first page and change the thread title).

And, since you indicated a difference earlier, can you describe what you consider to be "just the Financial District" and how it's different from its surroundings?

[blade_bltz]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I'd like to get some more opinions from folks about whether or not Tenderloin et al should be included in SF's number.

Anybody?

I just don't see how the Tenderloin, Chinatown, Nob Hill, or SOMA are appropriate for this kind of measurement. You stipulated in the original post that that the thread is about a city's "immediate central business district". Doesn't that make this pretty unambiguous? In SF's case it would be FiDi and Union Square.

[Gordo]

Originally Posted by blade_bltz

I just don't see how the Tenderloin, Chinatown, Nob Hill, or SOMA are appropriate for this kind of measurement. You stipulated in the original post that that the thread is about a city's "immediate central business district". Doesn't that make this pretty unambiguous? In SF's case it would be FiDi and Union Square.

I would tend to agree.

It is a bit wonky in SF's case, because the tracts that include the Market Street corridor and Civic Center area are contiguous with the FiDi and Union Square areas, contain literally tens of millions of square feet of office space, and include stuff that is almost always included in the primary CBD of cities in the US (basically all of the city government offices, state and federal office buildings, etc). That said, I don't think that any person in SF would ever say, "I'm going downtown to city hall."

[ue]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Can you provide a list of which tracts those are, and a link to where we can look up the info online (so we can also get Montreal and Vancouver - I'll add Canadian instructions to the first page and change the thread title).

And, since you indicated a difference earlier, can you describe what you consider to be "just the Financial District" and how it's different from its surroundings?

Yes this would be good. Be nice to see the differences between Canadian and American cities. Downtown Proper for Edmonton, for example is about 12 or 13,000. Not bad for a city of only 1.1 million especially with some of the stats for a few other cities I've seen on this thread. But this is just the Downtown Proper, not including areas like Oliver, Rossdale, Boyle Street, Central McDougall, etc. that are commonly referred to as "downtown". Calgary's Downtown Proper (as another example) has only about 8 000 people I believe because of it's downtown being heavily commercial. But once you include Downtown West, Bankview, East Village, the Beltline, Mission, and Cliff Bungalow the number rises quickly.

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

Originally Posted by VivaLFuego

I calculated population for a few different geographic definitions, using 2000 Census and a 2007 private market estimate.

First, the Chicago Central Area, generally defined as bounded by Division, Halsted, Roosevelt, Clark, Cermak, and the lake:

2000 pop: 75,877
2007 pop: 98,706 (est.)

This strikes me as more accurate than MayorofChicago's definition; the Loop and much of the Near North Side feels like one continuous area. Chicago's 'downtown' has definitely expanded in the past decade.

[Visualize]

San Jose, California



Census Tract 5008: 1,932
Census Tract 5009.1: 2,859

Total Downtown Population: 4,791

[Segun]

I think to add on to definition posted by Cirrus, think of downtown as not just institutional and commercial areas of a larger scale, but contiguous areas in which residential development virtually blend in with the high-density institutional and commercial areas (i.e. very few residential-only side streets). Or don't exist at all in the case of CBD's obviously. That's the trademarks of nearly all downtowns. There's a difference between that and a primarily residential neighborhood with a high density commercial corridor, even if it is walkable from downtown.

[KVNBKLYN]

For New York, I tried to use the most conservative, albeit arbitrary definitions of both Midtown and Downtown. I defined Midtown as stretching from 34th Street to 59th Street and from 3rd Avenue to 8th Avenue. I defined Downtown as south of Chambers west of Broadway and south of the Brooklyn Bridge east of it. Both of these definitions are arbitrary, especially Midtown's since places such as Columbus Circle, Penn Station and the UN all fall outside the boundaries.

Also keep in mind that using the 2000 Census data for Downtown is now pretty meaningless since the past ten years have seen an enormous boom in apartment construction in Battery Park City and the conversion of countless early twentieth century highrises along Wall Street into apartments.

Midtown (defined as 8th Avenue to 3rd Avenue, 59th Street to 34th Street):
Total: 29,236

Geography: Census Tract 137, New York County, New York
Value: 6,797 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 112.01, New York County, New York
Value: 1,041 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 112.02, New York County, New York
Value: 380 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 112.03, New York County, New York
Value: 1,255 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 131, New York County, New York
Value: 2,086 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 104, New York County, New York
Value: 1,097 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 102, New York County, New York
Value: 269 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 100, New York County, New York
Value: 1,822 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 125, New York County, New York
Value: 1,762 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 119, New York County, New York
Value: 1,405 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 113, New York County, New York
Value: 322 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 109, New York County, New York
Value: 208 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 96, New York County, New York
Value: 210 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 94, New York County, New York
Value: 51 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 92, New York County, New York
Value: 1,334 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 84, New York County, New York
Value: 1,041 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 82, New York County, New York
Value: 2,764 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 80, New York County, New York
Value: 5,392 Total Persons


Downtown (defined as south of Chambers or the Brooklyn Bridge):
Total: 22,732

Geography: Census Tract 317.01, New York County, New York
Value: 7,951 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 21, New York County, New York
Value: 2,407 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 15.01, New York County, New York
Value: 4,562 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 15.02, New York County, New York
Value: 3,937 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 7, New York County, New York
Value: 907 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 9, New York County, New York
Value: 1,111 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 319, New York County, New York
Value: 332 Total Persons
Geography: Census Tract 13, New York County, New York
Value: 1,525 Total Persons

[tech12]

Originally Posted by Gordo

I would tend to agree.

It is a bit wonky in SF's case, because the tracts that include the Market Street corridor and Civic Center area are contiguous with the FiDi and Union Square areas, contain literally tens of millions of square feet of office space, and include stuff that is almost always included in the primary CBD of cities in the US (basically all of the city government offices, state and federal office buildings, etc). That said, I don't think that any person in SF would ever say, "I'm going downtown to city hall."

Civic Center, and thus City Hall, is definitely a part of downtown SF (as is the Tenderloin), though City Hall is right at the edge.

I missed the part where we were supposed to do just the CBD though, and not central residential areas or "greater downtown," in which case there are a lot less than 70,000 people living there...I'm guessing around 15,000 or maybe 20,000.

[The Dirt]

Cirrus, I seriously think we've got some telepathy going on. I stumbled upon the census map page last night trying to look up Pueblo downtown numbers (for Eeyore's benefit), looked up the Denver downtown numbers this morning, and just now found this thread (24 hours later).

Seriously, get out of my head.

[volguus zildrohar]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

You know, an argument could be made that Market East and the Independence Mall area also constitute part of the CBD, due to the high core retail and office density throughout the area (e.g. the Aramark building, the former Curtis building, the Penn Mutual building, the Fox 29 building, etc.) at which point the tracts of Old City and Society Hill inclusive would be considered "downtown" per the terms provided.

I would also suggest that the south side of Spring Garden from Broad to the Art Museum has CBD-ish characteristics in some ways but it's a little too disconnected/tenuously connected to the core Penn Center and South Broad CBD to be considered part of Downtown Philadelphia as of yet.

The "critical mass" really doesn't drop off in Old City. East of 7th Street is comparatively dense with offices and retail and there is no gap or dividing line save for that provided by census tracts. I'm going to research other cities a bit based on the numbers people have provided and if it seems that other cities can fairly count areas similar to Old City then I'll revise the figures.

And I agree with you on Franklintown/Spring Garden. The critical mass effectively ends at The Parkway and I consider that as the dividing line between Center City and points north once you reach 20th Street. That area doesn't add up technically.

[quattordici]

Kinda depressing, but I'm gonna post Tuscaloosa, AL's anyways. Not gonna post a map though, since it's just a single census tract, it seems kinda pointless, and plus that census tract seemed to fit the downtown definition relatively well.

Tract 115, Tuscaloosa County, Alabama
381 Total Persons

PS: This was from 1990. I went to look at the 2000 data, but the census tract had been changed, so that data up there is the must accurate I could find.

[quattordici]

For Birmingham, AL:



Downtown Birmingham consists of two blocks. The one that the arrow is pointing to and the tan block immediately below it.

Tract 27, Jefferson County, Alabama
3,617 Total Persons

Tract 45, Jefferson County, Alabama
3,180 Total Persons

So, the total for Birmingham, AL is 6,797.

[quattordici]

Found the data for Huntsville, AL. It's just one census tract so I'm not gonna worry about a map.

Census Tract 1, Madison County, Alabama
2,651 Total Persons

[vid]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

a link to where we can look up the info online

Statcan's maps are easy to use, but require a lot of clicking and load slowly.

Statistics Canada Community Profiles 2006 (Here is the link for 2001's profiles.)

Step 1: Type in the name of the city

Step 2: Select the one that has (City) in brackets after the name, that gets you closest to downtown

Step 3: On the left, under the blue menu called "CITYNAME (C)", click 'map'

Step 4: Zoom in to at least the second zoom level

Step 5: On the bottom right of the menu at the bottom, click "census tracts". (If you go to page two of that menu, there is an option called "dissemination areas" on the bottom centre; this is a more exact area but you can only get population statistics from it)

Step 6: Select "identify" on the menu on the left

Step 7: Click on the map to highlight a tract. On the right, below the thumbnail map, the census tract number (5##0###.##), population and private dwelling count is displayed.

Step 8: For more detailed info, from ethnic backgrounds to percentage of the population commuting by bicycle, click "additional data" (right most option on the menu bar below the map), and click the first link, "census tract profiles - 00##.##"; it will bring you to a page like this.

I recommend using Google Maps and a spreadsheet to assist you in deciding which tracts to include and totalling up the information. Note that our Census doesn't record how many people work in a tract--at least not public--so you won't be able to get employment population figures, though you can find out how many residents are employed and, I think, how far they travel to work.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by edmontonenthusiast

Be nice to see the differences between Canadian and American cities.

No doubt Canadian cities will generally have larger downtown populations than otherwise similar American cities, especially 10 years ago.

Originally Posted by vid

Statcan's maps are easy to use, but require a lot of clicking and load slowly.

Just like US Census! Hooray government!

Originally Posted by Segun

I think to add on to definition posted by Cirrus, think of downtown as not just institutional and commercial areas of a larger scale, but contiguous areas in which residential development virtually blend in with the high-density institutional and commercial areas (i.e. very few residential-only side streets). Or don't exist at all in the case of CBD's obviously.

Good addition. I think most of us intuitively know what we're talking about here, but actually defining it is really hard. Like porn or love.

[Cirrus]

I copypasted vid's instructions for Canadian cities to the beginning of the thread and changed the title to be more inclusive of Canada. Also, I modified the defintion of downtown in the ground rules post to read:

For the purposes of this thread, the word "downtown" shall strictly be defined as "the part of a city that is dominated by commercial and institutional uses at a scale much greater than the surrounding neighborhoods, and in which there is a contiguous area where residential development blends seamlessly with commercial, or does not exist at all". For the purposes of this thread, the word "downtown" shall NOT include your city's central residential neighborhoods. Dense residential neighborhoods are NOT downtown, even if they have commercial "main streets" running through them. This thread is about your city's immediate central business district, NOT its "greater downtown area". When deciding which census tracts to use when compiling numbers for your city, please make every effort to cut out neighborhoods that are primarily bedroom communities or secondary activity centers (such as uptown districts), even if they are very dense. "Core population" and "downtown population" are NOT the same thing; we are studying the latter here, not the former.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by VivaLFuego

the Chicago Central Area, generally defined as bounded by Division, Halsted, Roosevelt, Clark, Cermak, and the lake

Originally Posted by Ch.G, Ch.G

This strikes me as more accurate than MayorofChicago's definition;

We're not looking for the "central area". We're looking for, essentially, the financial district.

Here is a map with the streets VivaLFuego called out shown in blue. It's hard to tell exactly what areas are proposed here, since some of these lines are parallel, but it seems to include large swaths of lower density territory.