Urban Water Thread

[volguus zildrohar]

Philadelphia's sewer system is prehistoric in many sections. Though the water department does an admirable job of updating it bit by bit every year, their progress can't keep up with the size and number of renovations, repurposings and new projects all over the city adding more strain to an already overstrained system. This is where older cities have their problems - we may have adequate access to water but woefully inadequate resources with which to use it.

[min-chi-cbus]

Why don't people just start being smarter about how much they "need" and waste less resources, let it be water, electricity, land, or whatever. And DON'T live in a desert if you need water!!!

[dimondpark]

Originally Posted by JDRCRASH

California needs to get the ball rolling. And cloud-seeding along with wastewater treatment should do the trick.

Well, the drought was declared over last week by Governor Brown. Our Sierra Snow Pack is well over 100% of normal and most of our reservoirs are overflowing at this very moment.

I found it disturbing that they actually had to release fresh water into the sea cause there was nowhere to put it.

We should figure out ways to keep that water. And I love the idea of each individual residence having some sort of on-site water collection unit.

[M II A II R II K]

Water Sharing in the Over-shared West


Apr 21, 2011

By Sierra Crane-Murdoch



Read More: http://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/water-...er-shared-west

Meeting Colorado's Future Water Supply Needs: http://www.cwi.colostate.edu/watersh...nservation.pdf

Innovative Strategies for the Colorado River Basin and the West: http://www.cwi.colostate.edu/publications/sr/22.pdf

If you were to trace the dips and rises in water sales across the American West onto a graph, the line would fall in synch with basic economics. In a recession, when dollars are scarce, water transactions are few and far between. But when a region booms, freeing up cash for all kinds of development, water becomes the limiting resource; individuals, companies and governments, scrambling to secure access to water, will pay big money to own someone else’s right. More often than not, it's a farmer who sells it to them. And once a right is sold, the land to which it was attached loses a good deal of its full value -- because land without water, in essence, if not literally, is a desert.

It’s the "buy and dry" phenomenon, and it's been irking irrigators and environmentalists for decades. As water becomes scarcer and cities grow, water rights are diverted permanently into the hands and wells of urbanites. In many cases, this transfer means less water for ecological purposes, such as habitat for fish, birds, and other game. In 2008, the Western Governors Association challenged its states to come up with innovative ways to transfer water from agricultural to urban use without jeopardizing ecological habitat or threatening agrarian economies. Since then, a collaboration among stakeholder groups, managed by the Colorado Water Institute at Colorado State University and funded by the Walton Family Foundation, has investigated best practices in water sharing and assembled a list of policy recommendations.

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[M II A II R II K]

Green 'New Urbanist' development rises in Albuquerque suburbs


By Stan Alcorn, Apr 18, 2011



Read More: http://www.hcn.org/issues/43.6/green...uerque-suburbs

One way to explain how a Manhattan-sized mesa may become the Southwest's largest green development is to point to its past success
as an apocalyptic wasteland. In 2008, a touch of twisted metal transformed part of Mesa del Sol, a 12,900-acre expanse south of
Albuquerque, into a robot-ravaged Los Angeles for the movie Terminator Salvation. The film's backers chose this spot for its empty
land and government subsidies -- the same things that, years earlier, attracted developer Forest City Covington.

If Forest City's plans are fully realized, the production facility that hosted Terminator will anchor a "New Urbanist" community for
100,000 people. Like other desert boomtowns, Albuquerque's loosely planned sprawl is on a collision course with its finite water supply.
Mesa del Sol will have an extremely efficient water system, and its dense, mixed-use design could reduce the need for more development
on the city's west side, where suburbs have consumed huge tracts of once-wild desert. Still, "sustainable" development in the arid
Southwest sounds quixotic at best, an oxymoron at worst.

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[10023]

Originally Posted by JDRCRASH

California needs to get the ball rolling. And cloud-seeding along with wastewater treatment should do the trick.

Cloud-seeding? So they can induce rainfall in California and cause droughts in the Midwest and Southeast? Are you nuts?

You guys can feel free to filter seawater and your own urine for drinking water. The cloud-seeding this is just never going to happen.

[JDRCRASH]

Originally Posted by 10023

Cloud-seeding? So they can induce rainfall in California and cause droughts in the Midwest and Southeast? Are you nuts?

What the hell are you talking about? How would increasing California's rainfall hurt the Midwest's and Southeast's?

You guys can feel free to filter seawater and your own urine for drinking water. The cloud-seeding this is just never going to happen.

Why not? It's happening in other countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_seeding#Modern_uses

[10023]

Originally Posted by JDRCRASH

What the hell are you talking about? How would increasing California's rainfall hurt the Midwest's and Southeast's?

It's quite simple really. There's a certain amount of moisture in the atmosphere. If it falls on California instead of continuing the move east across the North American continent, then some other place is deprived of rain it would otherwise have gotten. It's just like building a dam upstream and diverting water from a river - there will be less water that gets to the places downstream. And in the case of atmospheric moisture and clouds, we know even less about how it works and what we would likely screw up.

In other words, cloud-seeding will never be used to any meaningful degree for political if not technological reasons.

Originally Posted by JDRCRASH

Why not? It's happening in other countries.

It is being used in very limited ways over very small areas.

China used it to keep rain away from Beijing's Olympic venues during the games, ski resorts use it to induce blizzards (over an area of a few square miles) when they haven't gotten enough snow to open for the season, sometimes it is used to prevent particularly severe weather (if such weather is predicted in time). None of those examples are remotely like solving California's water problem by increasing annual rainfall.

edit: read your link and apparently they're doing larger scale operations in Australia and in a couple of African countries. But then, there's nothing but thousands of miles of ocean to the east of Tasmania (so no harm done really), and Mali and Niger probably aren't winning any accolades from their neighbors. Perhaps if North Carolina experienced a massive drought, they would be allowed to try cloud seeding. California is on the wrong end of the continent.

[M II A II R II K]

In the US southwest they could redirect the rain to fall upon the Colorada River and other lakes that are used to supply water. That's where the rain would be needed most anyway for supply purposes.

Beyond that expand upon the existing coastal desalination projects and invent atmospheric extraction devices to generate water out of the air.

[Don B.]

Originally Posted by 10023

It's quite simple really. There's a certain amount of moisture in the atmosphere. If it falls on California instead of continuing the move east across the North American continent, then some other place is deprived of rain it would otherwise have gotten. It's just like building a dam upstream and diverting water from a river - there will be less water that gets to the places downstream. And in the case of atmospheric moisture and clouds, we know even less about how it works and what we would likely screw up.

In other words, cloud-seeding will never be used to any meaningful degree for political if not technological reasons.

If I recall correctly, most of the midwest's rainfall comes north from the Gulf of Mexico. The Rockies provide a huge rain shadow and suck out most of the moisture that comes from the Pacific already.

--don

[Attrill]

Originally Posted by Don B.

If I recall correctly, most of the midwest's rainfall comes north from the Gulf of Mexico. The Rockies provide a huge rain shadow and suck out most of the moisture that comes from the Pacific already.

--don

That describes the situation pretty well - rain in the Midwest is mostly created by moisture pulled in from the Gulf or from Canada and the NW United States.

Ultimately mountain ranges do a much better job of squeezing the rain out of the clouds than cloud seeding ever could hope to do. Almost all of the rain on the West Coast that would be created by seeding would be destined to fall on the Sierras and other Western ranges, so in effect seeding would primarily be stealing water from reservoirs. Seeding may have some local small scale benefits for agriculture, but it isn't a large scale solution. As boring as it is the only real solutions are conservation and improved infrastructure.

All that said, 10023's point that water forced from clouds by seeding is rain that would have fallen elsewhere is correct.

[Don B.]

Originally Posted by Attrill

All that said, 10023's point that water forced from clouds by seeding is rain that would have fallen elsewhere is correct.

Based on what evidence? I read over the Wikipedia article on the subject and saw no clear proof one way or the other. Unfounded assertions presented without a scintilla of evidence are not persuasive.

--don

[10023]

Originally Posted by Don B.

If I recall correctly, most of the midwest's rainfall comes north from the Gulf of Mexico. The Rockies provide a huge rain shadow and suck out most of the moisture that comes from the Pacific already.

That may be true.

Originally Posted by Attrill

All that said, 10023's point that water forced from clouds by seeding is rain that would have fallen elsewhere is correct.

This is more to the point.


Basically we don't know nearly enough to be sure what the impact will be downwind, or anywhere else, and that alone is reason not to fuck with nature. At least until meteorologists can predict the next day's weather correctly better than half the time.

[Attrill]

Originally Posted by Don B.

Based on what evidence? I read over the Wikipedia article on the subject and saw no clear proof one way or the other. Unfounded assertions presented without a scintilla of evidence are not persuasive.

--don

Based on quite a few things - primarily basic physics and the purposes for which cloud seeding is applied. If you introduce chemicals into the atmosphere to get humidity out of the air you are decreasing the humidity of that air as it proceeds along, thereby decreasing the chances of rainfall downwind of where the seeding was done. Cloud seeding is done to modify weather patterns to both cause rain in some areas, and lessen rain in others, it's central to the entire concept of cloud seeding. There are loads of examples of it being used worldwide to prevent precipitation. In the US and Canada it is used to reduce the power of thunderstorms and prevent hail. The Chinese government seeded clouds before the Olympics to reduce the humidity in the air in order to prevent rainfall during the Olympics - "Clouds were seeded during the 2008 Summer Olympics in Beijing using rockets, so that there would be no rain during the opening and closing ceremonies." (that's from the Wikipedia article you're talking about). The Russian government has also used it to try to reduce the snowfall in Moscow.

If what you're questioning is the overall effectiveness of cloud seeding methods, that is a valid point. Unfortunately there is not a lot of hard evidence to quantify how well cloud seeding works. The US government gave up on it in the 70's and there are plenty of scientific studies that question if it really works. Australia has had mixed results, and the Chinese are convinced it works. There is a study currently being conducted in Wyoming that should add some solid data on the subject.

[lawfin]

Originally Posted by 10023

That may be true.


This is more to the point.


Basically we don't know nearly enough to be sure what the impact will be downwind, or anywhere else, and that alone is reason not to fuck with nature. At least until meteorologists can predict the next day's weather correctly better than half the time.

It is a peculiar American malady and perhaps more generally a modern western malady that science can be utilized to always save us from our choices.

It cannot

[BevoLJ]

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/...f-1432877.html

LCRA water permit amounts to massive expansion of water supplies
By Asher Price
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF

Taking a step toward expanding water supplies in the Colorado River basin, the Lower Colorado River Authority announced Monday it had won a permit from the state to divert nearly as much water each year as Lake Buchanan can contain.

The permit opens the way for the LCRA to build reservoirs in Colorado, Wharton and Matagorda counties with a combined storage a little less than half of Lake Travis' , with the potential for LCRA to invest billions to pipe that water back to Travis County.

The LCRA, which doles out water to Austin, Cedar Park, Pflugerville, Leander and other cities, as well as to power plants in the lower basin, said the move will free up water supplies in lakes Travis and Buchanan.

During heavy rains, the LCRA will divert up to 853,514 acre-feet of water a year downstream of Austin into a series of reservoirs under the terms of the permit, which was issued by the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality. The lower counties experience about twice as much rainfall as the upper ones.

Currently, that water flows into the Gulf of Mexico. Once LCRA impounds the water, it could sell it to new power plants or even pipe it back up to an expanding Austin metropolis. Water now released from the Highland Lakes for use by power plants and rice farmers downriver could then be rediverted to satisfy the dish-washing, lawn-watering, bathing and drinking needs of the seemingly ever-increasing population around greater Austin.

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[M II A II R II K]

Porous street unveiled in South Philly


May. 10, 2011

By JAN RANSOM



Read More: http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20...th_Philly.html

....

Today, Mayor Nutter, Deputy Mayor Rina Cutler and Councilman Frank DiCicco will unveil Philly's first porous street - on Percy, between Catharine and Christian and 9th and 10th - in South Philadelphia. "This will take a lot of pressure off of storm-water draining, and maybe we can get a handle on flooded basements," said at-large Councilman Jim Kenney. "The less water we have to treat, the better we are economically and environmentally." A porous street is made up of permeable materials including porous asphalt, which is specially designed to allow water to soak through the surface, thus eliminating storm-water runoff. Beneath the porous pavement lies a layer of stone that acts as temporary storage for water as it slowly soaks into the soil.

- The Green Street initiative is a part of the Philadelphia Water Department's Green City, Clean Waters program, an effort to improve the city's sewer infrastructure and reduce the amount of storm water that enters it. Similar to most older cities, parts of Philadelphia have a combined sewer system that includes both the sanitary sewer system - water from showers and toilets - and a storm-water system, said Andrew Stober, chief of staff for the Mayor's Office of Transportation and Utilities.

- During heavy rain, treatment plants can't accommodate the water, and consequently the toilet and storm water flows together into the city's rivers. "This happens 50 or 60 times a year," said Stober. "We've created a street that can literally absorb water. [This is the] first of its kind, the first of many." Percy Street was completely reconstructed with a new sewer system, main and piping.

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[SFUVancouver]

Some of the world's cleanest drinking water

That's what Metro officials boast as a new $820m filtration plant cuts parasitic organisms to zero

By Tiffany Crawford, Vancouver Sun May 7, 2010


On a plot of land the size of more than 20 football fields, the new $820-million Seymour-Capilano water filtration project is serving up some of the cleanest drinking water in the world, according to Metro Vancouver officials.

The new North Vancouver plant, the largest of its kind in Canada, officially opened Friday although it's already been supplying water for two-thirds of Metro Vancouver's residents since mid-January.

. . .

http://www.vancouversun.com/Some+wor...#ixzz0nMjUVmqw

The article does not really convey the remarkable location of this plant. Vancouver has a series of mountains to the north of the city, all of which are protected water sheds. The water in the Seymour and Capilano watersheds is dammed and these serve as the city's water reservoirs and produce a healthy amount of hydro power as well. This new water treatment plant is built on a low plateau behind the two mountains close to the level of the higher of the higher of the two natural reservoirs. Twin subway-sized tunnels were bored from through the mountain from the lower reservoir to the water filtration plant and water is pumped up to the reservoir and then all the water is sent down the other tunnel, through a hydro electric generator before being pumped through the region's water mains.

[M II A II R II K]

Relief for Noses in Brooklyn and Queens


http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/...ence&seid=auto

Jamaica Bay should smell better the next time it pours. On Thursday, New York City officials announced the opening of a $400 million plant in the Canarsie section of Brooklyn that is designed to capture the sewage and storm water runoff that had been discharged into Paerdegat Basin and Jamaica Bay during rainstorms. The new Paerdegat Basin Combined Sewer Overflow Facility is expected to reduce such discharges by about 70 percent a year, or 1.2 billion gallons.

The plant is the largest yet of several facilities the city has built to deal with a problem that contaminates waterways and create foul odors: during heavy rains, the combined sewer system carrying both wastewater and storm water runoff often overwhelms the capacity of sewage treatment plants, resulting in discharges into surrounding bodies of water.

The contamination affects the use of the waters for recreation and shellfish harvesting because of high bacteria counts, environmental groups say. The Paerdegat Basin plant will now store 50 million gallons worth of overflow in four retention tanks until it can be pumped back to the closest sewage treatment plant. It will also screen the overflow for large objects like plastic bottles and debris that previously had been released into the bay.

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[M II A II R II K]

Water Shortages Threaten the American West Lifestyle


May 13, 2011

By Arnie Cooper



Read More: http://www.miller-mccune.com/environ...gn=newsletters

PDF Report: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...73107.full.pdf

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Peter Gleick, co-founder and president of the Pacific Institute for Studies in Development, Environment, and Security, says 23 million more people will be added by 2030 amid mounting evidence that our current practices in water use and management are unsustainable. As Gleick points out in “Roadmap for Sustainable Water Resources in Southwestern North America,” it’s not land, energy, mining or climate, that is going to be most difficult issue to address in the Western United States — it’s water.

- John Sabo, an Arizona State University professor specializing in risk assessment and statistical issues in ecology says there was only one major result inconsistent with Reisner’s thinking: the infilling of reservoirs with sediment. Sabo thought, like Reisner, that this sediment would ultimately lead to water scarcity. But as he writes, “a complete loss of storage function … will not likely occur for most large reservoirs in the foreseeable future.” (And many smaller reservoirs are being dismantled for habitat restoration or seismic safety anyway.)

- As for the effect of “salt loads” from repeated applications of irrigation degrading cropland, Sabo’s study found that fruit and vegetable output and revenue have been disproportionately affected in the West with annual losses of $2.8 billion compared to $267 million in the East.

- Which brings us to the battle over water between farmers and residential users. Currently irrigated agriculture sucks up 80 percent of available water, leaving the rest for residential, commercial and industrial use. While urban areas are taking their water use — and abuse — more seriously, as California’s 2020 Water Conservation Plan attests to, more and more urban areas and municipalities look toward farmers to help pick up the slack. Some have suggested crop shifting or “growing local” to remedy the situation.

- That said, in the last decade, Phoenix crossed the point where more water is being used for domestic than agricultural uses. Though MacDonald concedes this is an anomaly, with increasing populations and demands for food it’s more likely, he believes, that pressure will build to shift water away from agriculture. “If we say, ‘OK, we are generating much more GDP from urban/suburban and industrial uses rather than agriculture. Let’s shunt it out of ag,’ what will then be the long-term sustainability costs of doing that? And that worries me.”

- Luckily, MacDonald says there is a buffer: “A lot of our water being consumed in today’s Southwestern cities and suburbs is for landscaping and pools — 70 percent in some places. It’s not like we’re suddenly gonna have no tap water.”

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