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  #21  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2010, 4:26 AM
hudkina hudkina is offline
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If you expand the radii around Detroit and Boston to 250 miles, "Boston" picks up New York, but "Detroit" makes up for it with Chicago, Toronto, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Columbus, Indianapolis, Dayton and arguably Milwaukee (depending on where you measure from, it's just about 250 miles). Those 8 metro areas alone would add nearly 25 million.

BTW, Cleveland's radius is actually higher than even Detroit's. Within 150 miles there are 19 Metropolitan Areas and 27 Micropolitan areas with a total population of 17,018,140. The largest are: Detroit - 4.45 million, Pittsburgh - 2.43 million, Columbus - 1.61 million, Akron - .70 million, and Toledo .70 million. If you include Canada (Hamilton, London, Kitchener, Windsor, Sarnia, Brantford, Chatham-Kent, Norfolk, Woodstock, and Stratford) the number jumps another 2,419,276 for a combined total of 19,437,416 which gives Chicago a run for its money.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2010, 6:35 AM
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Just for shits and giggles I figured I'd calculate the numbers for Orlando, FL:

(9) ORLANDO..........9,759,585..........11 MSAs
  • Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL..........2,697,731
  • Orlando-Kissimmee, FL..........1,984,855
  • Jacksonville, FL..........1,277,997
  • Bradenton-Sarasota-Venice, FL..........682,833
  • Cape Coral-Ft. Myers, FL..........571,344
  • Lakeland-Winter Haven, FL..........561,606
  • Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville..........534,359
  • Deltona-Daytona Beach-Ormond Beach, FL..........496,575
  • Port St. Lucie, FL..........392,117
  • Ocala, FL..........316,183
  • Gainesville, FL..........243,985

This would rank Orlando at #9, right between Atlanta (10.8 million) and Houston (8.5 million).
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  #23  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2010, 5:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bic View Post
Just for shits and giggles I figured I'd calculate the numbers for Orlando, FL:

(9) ORLANDO..........9,759,585..........11 MSAs
  • Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL..........2,697,731
  • Orlando-Kissimmee, FL..........1,984,855
  • Jacksonville, FL..........1,277,997
  • Bradenton-Sarasota-Venice, FL..........682,833
  • Cape Coral-Ft. Myers, FL..........571,344
  • Lakeland-Winter Haven, FL..........561,606
  • Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville..........534,359
  • Deltona-Daytona Beach-Ormond Beach, FL..........496,575
  • Port St. Lucie, FL..........392,117
  • Ocala, FL..........316,183
  • Gainesville, FL..........243,985

This would rank Orlando at #9, right between Atlanta (10.8 million) and Houston (8.5 million).
For whatever reason (which I don't understand), the original poster only included the top 6 populated MSAs for each city. So I'm not sure Orlando would in fact rank #9.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2010, 5:25 PM
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Also, Providence is 154 miles from NYC, as the crow flies. You might want to edit the New York figures by taking out Providence and adding New Haven...
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  #25  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2010, 5:36 PM
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About 75% of Miami's 150 mile radius would be the Everglades and the Atlantic Ocean....
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  #26  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2010, 6:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex1 View Post
For whatever reason (which I don't understand), the original poster only included the top 6 populated MSAs for each city. So I'm not sure Orlando would in fact rank #9.
He included all of the Metropolitan Areas but only listed the largest ones. For example, using Census 2000 Data, Orlando had 14 Metropolitan Areas within 150 miles for a total population of 8,712,792. If you include the 9 Micropolitan Areas within 150 miles the population jumps an additional 516,999 to 9,229,791.

Also, I believe he used the 2009 estimates for each Metropolitan area, so for the Orlando area the 14 Metropolitan Areas had a 2009 estimated population of 10,427,795, meaning it would have ranked just behind Atlanta. If you include the 9 Micropolitan Areas, the 2009 estimated population would be 11,031,241.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2010, 6:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex1 View Post
For whatever reason (which I don't understand), the original poster only included the top 6 populated MSAs for each city. So I'm not sure Orlando would in fact rank #9.
I only listed the 6 largest because doing otherwise would have created a very long list. That's why I simply listed the number of MSAs that counted toward the population indicator.

For NYC, I used the following 23 MSAs.
  • New York..........19,069,796
  • Philadelphia.......... 5,968,252
  • Providence.......... 1,600,642
  • Hartford.......... 1,195,998
  • Bridgeport, CT.......... 901,208
  • Albany.......... 857,592
  • New Haven, CT.......... 848,006
  • Allentown, PA.......... 816,012
  • Worcester, MA.......... 803,701
  • Poughkeespie, NY.......... 677,094
  • Scranton, PA.......... 549,454
  • Lancaster, PA.......... 507,766
  • Reading, PA.......... 407,125
  • Trenton-Ewing, NJ.......... 366,222
  • Atlantic City-Hammonton, NJ.......... 271,712
  • Norwich-New London, CT.......... 266,830
  • Binghamton, NY.......... 244,694
  • Kingston, NY.......... 181,440
  • Vineland-Millville-Bridgeton, NJ.......... 157,745
  • Dover, DE.......... 157,741
  • Lebanon, PA.......... 130,506
  • Pittsfield, MA.......... 129,288
  • Ocean City, NJ.......... 96,091

I hope you understand now. If I would have done that for each of the 13 largest MSAs, the original post would have been even longer than what it is now.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2010, 6:54 PM
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edit... i did that all wrong, here it is again:

i count 15 MSAs within a 150 mile radius of SF:

San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont MSA - 4,317,853
Sacramento--Arden-Arcade--Roseville MSA - 2,127,355
San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara MSA - 1,839,700
Fresno MSA - 915,267
Stockton MSA - 674,860
Modesto MSA - 510,385
Santa Rosa-Petaluma MSA - 472,102
Salinas MSA - 410,370
Vallejo-Fairfield MSA - 407,234
Santa Cruz-Watsonville MSA - 256,218
Merced MSA - 245,321
Chico MSA - 220,577
Yuba City MSA - 165,539
Madera-Chowchilla MSA - 148,632
Napa MSA - 134,650

total population: 12,846,063

Last edited by tech12; Jul 19, 2010 at 7:40 PM.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2010, 6:59 PM
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Originally Posted by SHiRO View Post
150 miles?!

I can leave the country, cross two others and enter the fourth!
Over 50 million people live in that kind of radius from where I live, which is a small 200,000 city (470,000 metro/"MSA").

Nice research, but 150 miles seems a bit too generous to be of practical use. As has been commented, you would capture the most population when you center in between NYC and Philly and not when centered on NYC itself which should be the baseline for any comparison imo. Seems a bit engineered to generate a certain result like this...
150 miles is about a 2-2.5 hour drive, Shiro. Americans do that quite regularly.

And yes, we are all aware that the part of Europe containing the Low Countries and Germany's Ruhr is very densely populated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SHiRO View Post
Seattle/Vancouver or San Diego/Tijuana don't count? No Windsor, etc for Detroit?
No Schengen area in North America, bud. National borders actually matter - less so for Canada, but nonetheless.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2010, 8:53 PM
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Well the only thing this statistic seems to show is is something we should all already know: that the Low Countries/Ruhr Valley (possibly south to the Ile de France?) has about the same mean population density as the U.S. Northeast.

I remember reading SNCF studies in the high-speed rail thread that claimed that the mean population densities of the Midwest, the Florida peninsula, Texas, and California are all equivalent to the mean population density in the whole of France.

Or, if you randomly tossed a dart at a map of America, you'd either wind up with it wedged near a town an easy drive of many many people, or near a town where you'd have to expand a radius to 500 miles or so just to include 100k people. Basically, Americans like to bunch up, despite our belief in the wide-open spaces being available to everyone.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2010, 9:04 PM
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Quote:
(8)SAN FRANCISCO..........11,710,219..........13 MSAs
  • San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA.......... 4,317,853
  • Sacramento--Arden-Arcade--Roseville, CA.......... 2,127,355
  • San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA.......... 1,839,700
  • Stockton, CA.......... 674,860
  • Modesto, CA.......... 510,385
  • Santa Rosa-Petaluma, CA.......... 472,102


(9)ATLANTA..........10,763,686..........19 MSAs
  • Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA.......... 5,475,213
  • Birmingham-Hoover, AL.......... 1,131,070
  • Greenville-Mauldin-Easley, SC.......... 639,617
  • Augusta-Richmond County, GA-SC.......... 539,154
  • Chattanooga, TN-GA.......... 524,303
  • Montgomery, AL.......... 366,401

(10)HOUSTON..........8,472,843..........6 MSAs
  • Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX.......... 5,867,489
  • Austin-Round Rock, TX.......... 1,705,075
  • Beaumont-Port Arthur, TX.......... 378,477
  • College Station-Bryan, TX.......... 212,268
  • Lake Charles, LA.......... 194,138
  • Victoria, TX .......... 115,396
If you're doing this by straight line distance from city center to city center, you left Huntsville, AL MSA out of the equation for Atlanta.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2010, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by tredici View Post
If you're doing this by straight line distance from city center to city center, you left Huntsville, AL MSA out of the equation for Atlanta.
I understand what you mean. Huntsville was 151 miles using my starting point Also, Knoxville TN is 152 miles. If those two MSAs were included 2 more MSAs would be added to Atlanta and additional 1.1 million. The Atlanta total would then be 11.8 million using the MSAs only. In addition, since someone brought up Micropolitan areas, the Micropolitan Area population of Atlanta in the 150 mile radius is 1.2 million so the total approximates 13 million when Micros are included.

I was sorta hard-nosed with the distance. I kept the starting point consistent. So even if it was a mile off, I excluded or included. That's why I really don't have any argument with anyone excluding/including Providence in NYC, Chico and Fresno in San Francisco, etc etc etc......
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  #33  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2010, 9:48 PM
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Originally Posted by L41A View Post
I understand what you mean. Huntsville was 151 miles using my starting point Also, Knoxville TN is 152 miles. If those two MSAs were included 2 more MSAs would be added to Atlanta and additional 1.1 million. The Atlanta total would then be 11.8 million using the MSAs only. In addition, since someone brought up Micropolitan areas, the Micropolitan Area population of Atlanta in the 150 mile radius is 1.2 million so the total approximates 13 million when Micros are included.

I was sorta hard-nosed with the distance. I kept the starting point consistent. So even if it was a mile off, I excluded or included. That's why I really don't have any argument with anyone excluding/including Providence in NYC, Chico and Fresno in San Francisco, etc etc etc......
I used the straight line distance feature on Gmaps Pedometer and came up with 141 from downtown Atlanta to downtown Huntsville. I've found that site to be quite accurate in the past. Which method/site did you use?
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  #34  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2010, 9:57 PM
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Depending on where you're measuring from, Huntsville is definitely in the 140-145 mile range, well within the 150 mile radius.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2010, 10:02 PM
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What is your methodology here? Is any metropolitan area within a 150 miles of the center of the main metropolitan area is included, or does the entire other metro area have to be within a 150 mile radius?

I did something similar years ago and posted here, but I think it's been purged long ago.
I wrote a small program to calculate the population within a certain radius of a certain census tract using census area data. I'll see if the code is still somewhere on my harddrive.

EDIT: Ah, found it! I still have the code and my compilation of 2000 census area tract, so if anyone's interested just say so and I can post more results (and the code(C++)+data).

I'll just post the 200km radius (so approximately 125 miles) for NYC, LA, Chicago and Philadelphia.

New York
------------
Population: 31599054
Land Area: 80386.9 sq km
Population Density: 393.087 people / sq km

Chicago
------------
Population: 15213265
Land Area: 98752.3 sq km
Population Density: 154.055 people / sq km

Los Angeles
------------
Population: 19882968
Land Area: 72211.6 sq km
Population Density: 275.343 people / sq km

Philadelphia
------------
Population: 33775290
Land Area: 86016.9 sq km
Population Density: 392.659 people / sq km

Last edited by Mad_Nick; Jul 19, 2010 at 10:31 PM.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2010, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by L41A View Post
I only listed the 6 largest because doing otherwise would have created a very long list. That's why I simply listed the number of MSAs that counted toward the population indicator.

For NYC, I used the following 23 MSAs.
  • New York..........19,069,796
  • Philadelphia.......... 5,968,252
  • Providence.......... 1,600,642
    ...

I hope you understand now. If I would have done that for each of the 13 largest MSAs, the original post would have been even longer than what it is now.
oh.

Still, you should remove Providence from New York's numbers. It's over the 150 mile threshold. If the reason Providence is listed is because it's city limits are less than 150 to nYc's city limits, you might want to add Indianapolis to Chicago's numbers.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2010, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by L41A View Post
Using my method, Providence is 143 straight-line miles from NYC. If you use what Google Earth or Mapquest, etc use as the city center - the straight-line distance is approximately 150 miles. It's a relative distance between the MSAs, not the city itself.

New Haven is included. It's just not in the top 6 Largest when you include New York itself - its the 7th. For New York, there are 23 MSAs used for the calculation - just the 6 largest are listed.
as the crow flies, Providence is 154 miles from NYC.

but i digress, south side of Chicago to the north side of Indianapolis is 144 miles. Does that count under your method?
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Last edited by alex1; Jul 21, 2010 at 1:49 AM.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2010, 3:11 AM
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Originally Posted by alex1 View Post
as the crow flies, Providence is 154 miles from NYC.
Obviously there is no "answer" to this question, as there is no commonly agreed upon centerpoint of any city. Different references will have different point-to-point data.
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Originally Posted by alex1 View Post
but i digress, south side of Chicago to the north side of Indianapolis is 144 miles. Does that count under your method?
I imagine this would be nonsensical, as there would be then be no standard for any city. There is no way to make a 150 mile radius if you are measuring from each furthest possible point.

For NYC, for example, Baltimore would easily be within 150 miles when measured from Staten Island. Philly is only 50 miles from Tottenville, Staten Island.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2010, 4:24 AM
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Even if you measured from 59th St at Central Park 150 miles still wouldn't reach the core of Providence. If you consider the center of Providence to be Kennedy Square, the lowest point you'd be able to reach on Manhattan would be 96th St. If you measure from I-95, you'd still only get as low as 84th.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2010, 4:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Obviously there is no "answer" to this question, as there is no commonly agreed upon centerpoint of any city. Different references will have different point-to-point data.
You'd count downtowns (or where city hall is located). Downtown Providence (easy to figure out) to nYc. To be liberal, I've picked Bleecker and Broadway, which is some blocks north of what most maps pick as the NYC's "center", or where city hall is. Distance? 155 miles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I imagine this would be nonsensical, as there would be then be no standard for any city. There is no way to make a 150 mile radius if you are measuring from each furthest possible point.

For NYC, for example, Baltimore would easily be within 150 miles when measured from Staten Island. Philly is only 50 miles from Tottenville, Staten Island.
nonsensical? You say there isn't any commonly agreed upon center point to any city. So what "point" would be "sensical" to you?

FYI, Baltimore northeastern most corner is 144.2 miles (as the crow flies) from the tip of Staten Island. If you count Providence for nYc, you might as well count Baltimore too, and you might as well count Indy with Chicago.
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Last edited by alex1; Jul 21, 2010 at 5:11 AM.
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