Crowchild Trail... Thoughts?

[mersar]

Originally Posted by SmokWawelski

Any dates on those images??? I'm curious as to when this was done??

Given it shows Banff Trail NW how it was pre-LRT, mid to late 70's is my guess. Also most of the roads that used to connect to Crowchild (1st-4th, 7th avenues, Westmount Road) are shown to now be closed off in the plan.

[Jack Doe]

Originally Posted by SmokWawelski

Any dates on those images??? I'm curious as to when this was done??

Around 1979, I think.

[Jimby]

Originally Posted by chenmau

It needs to be done. Wasn't close to $500M spent on GE5? Crowchild is not much different in scale. It has to rate up there now as one of the biggest backlogs in the city during rush hour. It needs to be fixed.

GE5 was about $120 million.
Why fix Crowchild? Yes I find it an annoying bottleneck, but it will just encourage more single occupant motor vehicle commuters who will keep demanding more and better roads for their convenience to get in and out of the inner city.

[Jack Doe]

Originally Posted by chenmau

It needs to be done. Wasn't close to $500M spent on GE5? Crowchild is not much different in scale. It has to rate up there now as one of the biggest backlogs in the city during rush hour. It needs to be fixed.

I agree it should be done. I'd rather this than the airport tunnel, if I had to make a choice.

From the city's website:

"City Council approved a total budget of $110 million for the construction of interchanges at Elbow Drive and 5 Street S.W., in addition to road improvements on Glenmore Trail between Macleod Trail and 14 Street S.W."

That doesn't include the cost of the causeway upgrades, which were around $50M.

[Jack Doe]

Here's something I picked up around the time of the U of C's planning around 2000. Of interest are the plans for the 16 Av/29 St I/C and the 32 Av/Shaganappi Tr I/C. BTW, it gives the date of Crowchild Trail North FPS as 1979.

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by Jimby

GE5 was about $120 million.
Why fix Crowchild? Yes I find it an annoying bottleneck, but it will just encourage more single occupant motor vehicle commuters who will keep demanding more and better roads for their convenience to get in and out of the inner city.

I agree with you but, the area does need a little bit of a fix. We dont want all of those drivers road raging any more than they already do. Though, I dont think a massive US style, neighborhood-destroying freeway is the answer.

It sure would help if some of these commuters would adjust their lifestyles and maybe carpool and take transit more. I cant believe how many veicles with only one driver are on the roads here. We dont have any more money for large-scale roadway improvements right now. We are talking about hundeds of millions of dollars for something that is very close to working properly.........You think your commute is bad??? Try Vancouver or Toronto!! We have so many opportunities to set up Calgary different than other cities that have been ruined by freeways!!

[kw5150]

Here is my attempt at reducing the number of cars that merge on and off of Crowchild with a new bridge that links directly to the far west end of Sunalta. I also buried the eastbound memorial lanes.

This would reduce the number of cars criss-crossing crowchild to get to and from memorial which is one of the biggeest problems IMO. One more lane on southbound crowchild would also open up. There would be opportunities to have pedestrian and bike lanes on the new bridge. Imagine crossing that bridge and heading directly into west sunalta to grab a morning coffee. With the plans to open up 10th ave SW and have a crossing at 14th street this plan would be nice and have a very local feel like kensington or bridgeland.

Please dont bash the idea too much!! It was a fun exercise and I realize that I am not a traffic planner.

[polishavenger]

There is absolutely no questions that the city needs a properly functioning skeletal freeway system, not so much for making commute times faster, but to facilitate commercial traffic, which has no choice but to use the road network. Crowchild functions as the interior portion of the framework on the west side of the city, and IMO should be free flowing with 6 continous lanes minimum from its southern origin to Cochrane.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by kw5150

Here is my attempt at reducing the number of cars that merge on and off of Crowchild with a new bridge that links directly to the far west end of Sunalta. I also buried the eastbound memorial lanes.

Not a bad idea at all. The only big concern is directing all that Memorial bound traffic through Sunalta to get to the new bridge. You would need some kind of exit off Bow Trail directly to that new bridge for it to be successful, I'd imagine.

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

Not a bad idea at all. The only big concern is directing all that Memorial bound traffic through Sunalta to get to the new bridge. You would need some kind of exit off Bow Trail directly to that new bridge for it to be successful, I'd imagine.

yes.....that is a problem.....hmmmm..... that whole area is just effed..... solving this area is definatley key to solving the free flow problems. any suggestions anyone? Some kind of drop down lane from bow trail that goes along the rail line and connects to the road leading to my new bridge?

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by polishavenger

There is absolutely no questions that the city needs a properly functioning skeletal freeway system, not so much for making commute times faster, but to facilitate commercial traffic, which has no choice but to use the road network. Crowchild functions as the interior portion of the framework on the west side of the city, and IMO should be free flowing with 6 continous lanes minimum from its southern origin to Cochrane.

The commercial traffic excuse is pretty flimsy if you think about it. The road system is more than adequate outside of peak commuting times. Goods can be moved the twenty hours every day when it is a breeze to to travel without businesses suffering. I am not necessarily opposed to completing Crowchild but I know it will not be enough to satisfy. Even on this forum we have seen calls for free flow traffic on McKnight and 14th St S, more interchanges on Macleod Trail and elsewhere. Where do we stop? Do we bring back plans to unite the two Sarcee Trails as a single freeway? Do we force 14th St S north of the reservoir? So we bring back the Downtown penetrator?

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

The commercial traffic excuse is pretty flimsy if you think about it. The road system is more than adequate outside of peak commuting times. Goods can be moved the twenty hours every day when it is a breeze to to travel without businesses suffering. I am not necessarily opposed to completing Crowchild but I know it will not be enough to satisfy. Even on this forum we have seen calls for free flow traffic on McKnight and 14th St S, more interchanges on Macleod Trail and elsewhere. Where do we stop? Do we bring back plans to unite the two Sarcee Trails as a single freeway? Do we force 14th St S north of the reservoir? So we bring back the Downtown penetrator?

Yes, lets not destroy our city with freeways like detroit did in the 40's. The inner city is now almost vacant.

[polishavenger]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

The commercial traffic excuse is pretty flimsy if you think about it. The road system is more than adequate outside of peak commuting times. Goods can be moved the twenty hours every day when it is a breeze to to travel without businesses suffering. I am not necessarily opposed to completing Crowchild but I know it will not be enough to satisfy. Even on this forum we have seen calls for free flow traffic on McKnight and 14th St S, more interchanges on Macleod Trail and elsewhere. Where do we stop? Do we bring back plans to unite the two Sarcee Trails as a single freeway? Do we force 14th St S north of the reservoir? So we bring back the Downtown penetrator?

Commercial traffic doesnt stop during regular business hours. Peak hours will never be free flowing, but need to at least prevent grid lock. The section between 17th Ave SW and the University is nearing gridlock, and by any engineering standards is functionally obsolete.

I am a proponent of building a base freeway system around Crow, 14th Street South, Glenmore, Macleod Trail south of Anderson, 22x, 16th Ave North, Deerfoot, Ring Road, and then freezing any new freeway construction. Once a base system like that is built, all budgetary resources should be divereted towards public transit.

[Koolfire]

Originally Posted by kw5150

Yes, lets not destroy our city with freeways like detroit did in the 40's. The inner city is now almost vacant.

I'm a little tired of that argument that freeways destroied Detroit. It would assume that unemployment and then crime had nothing to do with it's demise. I would say cities in Califorina has embraced the freeway just as much as Detroit and population wise Califorina is doing just fine.

Crowchild freeway or not the damage has already done to that neighbourhood.

[Koolfire]

Originally Posted by kw5150

Here is my attempt at reducing the number of cars that merge on and off of Crowchild with a new bridge that links directly to the far west end of Sunalta. I also buried the eastbound memorial lanes.

This would reduce the number of cars criss-crossing crowchild to get to and from memorial which is one of the biggeest problems IMO. One more lane on southbound crowchild would also open up. There would be opportunities to have pedestrian and bike lanes on the new bridge. Imagine crossing that bridge and heading directly into west sunalta to grab a morning coffee. With the plans to open up 10th ave SW and have a crossing at 14th street this plan would be nice and have a very local feel like kensington or bridgeland.

Please dont bash the idea too much!! It was a fun exercise and I realize that I am not a traffic planner.

I too enjoy this as more of a problem solving puzzle. Do as much as possible with as little as possible. I was looking at the map you came up with, did you remove Eastbound Memorial to Southbound Crowchild access?


I was thinking something a little simpler. This would be pricey as it would be mostly elevated but should work. Bow and Crowchild are already elevated at the start of the off ramps. That would just continue over to a new bridge. Green is single lane, Blue is 2 lanes and Yellow is 3 lanes. From the existing Northbound bridge I would then just remove access to Memorial.


As for the comment to fix the rest of Crowchild south of Bow Trail. My first thought was close NB access from 17th as it's too close to Bow and with the geometry there, you cannot do much without major property acquistions. And then replace it with similar access point from 26th. Just 26th->NB Crowchild and NB->Crowchild to 26th. 33th to 26th is about 700 m but 17 to Bow is about 500 (400 to the start of the Bow off ramp).


EDIT. I rethought it with something that could be quite a bit cheaper and better then the proposed above. Same as before blue is 2 lanes and green is single lane. No new 3 lane sections. Also on would prevent weaving on the current NB bridge by moving up the start of the off ramp to before Bow and 10th ave join and placing a concrete barrier between 3 through lanes and the off ramp. This would probably mean that the existing bridge would need to be widened by one lane.

[Koolfire]

Originally Posted by Jack Doe

Some images from the Crowchild Trail Functional Planning Study. The study can be found at the Central Library (3rd or 4th Floor, I think)


The latest cost estimate I have seen for upgrading the section of Crowchild from Kensington to 24th to freeway standard is $333 million.

Thank you for posting these.

There was a couple things I didn't like on these plans.
1. These points of access to motel village suck. They remind me of intersections like Barlow/Centre ave/Meridian ave NE and Barlow/7th Ave/Meridian NE. They are congestion nightmares, two intersections should never be so close together.

2. McMahon stadium should have more the one access. They should at least put a new one on University Drive in the SE corner of the parking lot if they remove those ramps.
3. Kensignton interchange would be nice if they could do something smaller like a Single Point Interchange with Retaining walls to keep it as narrow as possible. As it's drawn now it's a monster for that neighbourhood. Also relating to this. Could you not just force traffic NB to access Kensington via Memorial? Wouldn't have to build that NB weave.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Koolfire

Thank you for posting these.

There was a couple things I didn't like on these plans.
1. These points of access to motel village suck. They remind me of intersections like Barlow/Centre ave/Meridian ave NE and Barlow/7th Ave/Meridian NE. They are congestion nightmares, two intersections should never be so close together.

2. McMahon stadium should have more the one access. They should at least put a new one on University Drive in the SE corner of the parking lot if they remove those ramps.
3. Kensignton interchange would be nice if they could do something smaller like a Single Point Interchange with Retaining walls to keep it as narrow as possible. As it's drawn now it's a monster for that neighbourhood. Also relating to this. Could you not just force traffic NB to access Kensington via Memorial? Wouldn't have to build that NB weave.

I fail to see how two right in/right outs a block apart on a service road would be congestion nightmares. The entire point of service roads is to allow multiple intersections in close proximity while maintaining proper ramp spacing

[floobie]

Originally Posted by polishavenger

I am a proponent of building a base freeway system around Crow, 14th Street South, Glenmore, Macleod Trail south of Anderson, 22x, 16th Ave North, Deerfoot, Ring Road, and then freezing any new freeway construction. Once a base system like that is built, all budgetary resources should be divereted towards public transit.

I would tend to agree with this, though maybe not quite to that extent. My thoughts on 16 ave N are mixed. I think it would be nice if the trans Canada highway were actually a highway through the city. But, I think it would be a huge shame to do that to 16 avenue. Parts of it are pretty nice, and upgrading it to a highway would totally ruin the areas. I'd rather the ring road deal with "through" Calgary traffic.

My opinion as far as developing the roadway goes: Make the roads that have already "damaged the area" as efficient and free-flowing as possible, but don't go beyond that. Calgary already has sprawl. I think we've gone too far with it to simply ignore it and stop building infrastructure that accommodates it (both roads and transit). So, I'd rather the infrastructure catch up with the sprawl... but definitely not sprawl out further.

I'll admit, I'm a bit car biased. I actively enjoy driving. But, I also see transit as a way to increase my driving pleasure... the more convenient transit is, the more likely people who don't care about driving beyond its convenience are to use it... which leads to emptier roads for me to enjoy

Some of the ideas here are really cool! That old plan looks pretty good overall. I agree, though, that McMahon Stadium access looks pretty lacking. Though, I also quite like kw5150's tunnel solution to the Memorial drive bit. Tunnels are inherently cool.

[Koolfire]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

I fail to see how two right in/right outs a block apart on a service road would be congestion nightmares. The entire point of service roads is to allow multiple intersections in close proximity while maintaining proper ramp spacing

I don't have a problem with them being a block apart. I don't like about them. What I don't like is that as soon as you turn right in you immediately at another intersection were you can go straight, go left or go right and possibility have a car crossing the intersection just a you turn in.

[SubwayRev]

Originally Posted by Koolfire

I'm a little tired of that argument that freeways destroied Detroit. It would assume that unemployment and then crime had nothing to do with it's demise. I would say cities in Califorina has embraced the freeway just as much as Detroit and population wise Califorina is doing just fine.

I second that...Detroit's problems have nothing to do with freeways. Other cities, such as, New York, Chicago, LA, Houston, Atlanta, Washington, Seattle, and Boston have extensive freeways around their downtown, and none of them are anywhere near the ghost town that Detroit is. Detroit's problems are...too numerous to list here.