Compass & Fare Gates Discussion | u/c

[mezzanine]

^ there has been a somewhat related study of the effect of no fares on transit and perception of transit. The gist of the study is that that if you keep order, and the perception of order, on your system through fares (and their enforcement) then you do get concrete benefit.

To quote:

Psychological costs in personal security and physical crowding seen in these fare-free demonstrations may actually cause more problems than the psychological cost of the farebox. Problem riders increase personal security costs of transit use and cause a decrease in ridership of both new and existing choice riders (Hodge et al., 1994). This view is supported by Peter Foote, member of the Transportation Research Board Bus Transit Systems Committee, who notes that, “I share others’ concern with the impact of free fares on things like graffiti and other acts of vandalism. There might also be an impact on passenger safety if one presumes that transit fares can act as a barrier to access for those intent on thievery.” Further, as evidenced in the Austin experiment, choice riders do not immediately return to the system once they’ve been driven out, and the system must prove itself over time to disenfranchised riders (PMT Technical Committee, 2001).

[officedweller]

I think Copenhagen's automated Metro is also POP

Here are some interesting bits on fares from their website:

To take the Metro, you use the same tickets as for other trains and buses in metropolitan Copenhagen.


Prices

A single-ride two-zone ticket costs DKK 19 while a two-zone multi-ride ticket with ten clips (rides) costs DKK 120. Children under the age of twelve travel free when accompanied by an adult – there is, however, a maximum of two children per adult. Children’s two-zone tickets cost DKK 9.50. An extra night fee applies between 1 am and 5 am.

You can purchase Metro tickets from the Metro ticket machines located in all Metro stations. Here you’ll also find special tickets for dogs and bicycles. If you already have a valid Copenhagen Card, you can ride the Metro as much as you like at no extra charge.

Dogs

You are allowed to bring small dogs on the Metro, other trains and buses if they are carried in bags. You must purchase child tickets for larger dogs if they are brought on the Metro.

Children

Children under 12 years can travel for free in buses, the Metro and other trains in the metropolitan area, if they are accompanied by an adult.

The limit is two non-paying children per adult.

Tickets validity

Tickets / stamped ten-trip cards for 2 and 3 zones are valid for one hour.
Tickets / stamped ten-trip cards for 4, 5 and 6 zones are valid for 1.5 hours.
Tickets / stamped ten-trip cards for all zones are valid for 2 hours.

Night fares

Night fares: Ticket tariffs are doubled if you board the Metro between 1 and 5 a.m. If you use a ten trip card you'll need to punch twice during nighttime.

[deasine]

omg... dogs have to pay LOL

I was just at 29th SkyTrain station as I got off work from downtown... holy mother there was like half a dozen police cars... scary... but I felt safer *wink*

[mr.x]

what if it's one of those blind walking dogs?

[officedweller]

It says those are free elsewhere on the website. It also says that dogs are not allowed near the first and last 6 seats of each train, which are reserved for people allergic to dogs.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by officedweller

It says those are free elsewhere on the website. It also says that dogs are not allowed near the first and last 6 seats of each train, which are reserved for people allergic to dogs.

-___-"

It's so detailed...

[SpongeG]

a friend of a friend was beaten up at joyce station last week

and a coworker was mugged at the same station a few months ago - had his week old cell phone stolen

[agrant]

I hope they reported to the police.

I don't see why we can't have these type of things captured on camera. There should be camera coverage of the whole area for every skytrain station.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

^ there has been a somewhat related study of the effect of no fares on transit and perception of transit. The gist of the study is that that if you keep order, and the perception of order, on your system through fares (and their enforcement) then you do get concrete benefit.

To quote:

This has nothing to do with the benefits of having and not having fare gates. It talks about the benefits of enforcing fares and keeping order, I don't think anyone would ever argue otherwise. The fact remains that fare gates are not only a waste of money but they are completely unnecessary, its unfortunate that in todays world people who are not in the know can try to attempt to ram their idiotic uneducated ideas down everyones throats and have as pay for it(im talking about Falcon by the way). Its like a plumber telling a person they need a heart transplant while all the doctors say they don't, yet the plumber decides to ignore them thinking that his thinking is superior. I will say it again balance the level of enforcement and presents of transit security and police until all the numbers balance out(etc. costs, fare evasion, revenues, perception of safety etc.) Puting up fare gates is old world type of thinking, its stupid, our world should be moving away from that, and in fact it is as no new rapid transit networks are built with fare gates unless its pushed through by some idiot politician or its a expansion on to a large network that already has them so they try to maintain the status quo(thank in large part to the fact that they probably never stopped to think, do a bit of research and rip them all out). Anyways I think its a lost cause for me to try and explain this and i wouldn't be surprised if this is pushed through and our money flushed down the toilet. Man this stuff just gets me so mad, but then we are only human, we are not perfect and I suppose flushing our money down the toilet on useless shit is just part of human nature.

[SpongeG]

i don't know

gates will make people perceive the system is safe and make some switch

there are some people who just go to the stations to hang out or do bad things that will probably not be able to do so anymore

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

i don't know

gates will make people perceive the system is safe and make some switch

there are some people who just go to the stations to hang out or do bad things that will probably not be able to do so anymore

precisely. the statistics from Amsterdam is pure evidence.

[cornholio]

^Proper patrols give the same and a better results when it comes to perceived safety and actual safety. The numbers from Amsterdam are useless because they never made a proper effort at keeping order and enforcing fares, the fact that they could of reached the same results without putting up gates by taking a modern approach to their problems remains. Putting up gates on to a system where there is no enforcement and order will no doubt have results like in Amsterdam, that doesn't mean putting up those gates is a smart choice because there are/were better choices available. Anyways like I said people are designed to see physical solutions to problems and are blind to simple solutions. Anyways like I said its a lost cause trying to explain this.

[SpongeG]

no

but to the general public seeing barriers makes them feel safe

its like how rich people fence themselves into their little compounds to keep out the common folk

they are really no safer or better off but they fell so

[jlousa]

I'll pipe into this discussion, as a youth I rode the skytrain for for a good 7 years w/o ever buying a ticket, at least 10 times a week, probably closer to 20 times a week, during that time I received 2 tickets, I did pay for both of them. As an adult there has still been numerous times I have rode the system w/o paying, I admit it. It's not that I can't afford it, it simply boils down to being cheap, and it being so easy to get away with. I can assure you I wouldn't be jumping any gates to avoid paying though. Anyone that doesn't believe that fare evasion is alot more serious then translink admits to is kidding themselves. I truly would not be surprised if it is also in the 30% range here. That is alot of money that could go towards funding additional transit. I also believe it will reduce crime around stations by a measurable amount.

[deasine]

I would say a porper mix of both turnstiles and proper safety around the SkyTrain stations would be the best for the metro region.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by jlousa

I'll pipe into this discussion, as a youth I rode the skytrain for for a good 7 years w/o ever buying a ticket, at least 10 times a week, probably closer to 20 times a week, during that time I received 2 tickets, I did pay for both of them. As an adult there has still been numerous times I have rode the system w/o paying, I admit it. It's not that I can't afford it, it simply boils down to being cheap, and it being so easy to get away with. I can assure you I wouldn't be jumping any gates to avoid paying though. Anyone that doesn't believe that fare evasion is alot more serious then translink admits to is kidding themselves. I truly would not be surprised if it is also in the 30% range here. That is alot of money that could go towards funding additional transit. I also believe it will reduce crime around stations by a measurable amount.

Recently fare checks have been increased and the fine quadrupled to just over $170. This was done after translink did a study on fare evasion and realized that the current system and fine was not sufficient. i have no problem with you not paying the fact remains that if you dont pay you will eventually get fined with the fine being greater then any savings you have had by not paying your fares. those are the odds with the level of enforcement and high fine. anyways opinions are nice and all but numbers, stats, and real research are better. by the way i could tell you that fare evasion is no where near 30%, for our network now a days after the increased fines and enforcement fare evasion is going to be well under 5%(hit up translink for info) and that small percentage that dont pay are mostly going to be people who cant pay because like i said you cant save any money by not paying.

[jlousa]

Trust me it's not 5%, it might not be 30% but it's nowhere near 5%. Also if I were to get caught, the fine wouldn't even be close to the amount I've saved. I'm not proud of that, but it's the truth. I've walked by the skytrain police countless of occasions and never been checked. They only appear to check the undesirables, and as you know they won't pay the fines anyways. Try it yourself, take the train everyday for a few months during rush hour and tell me how many times you get checked.
The gates are long overdue, while expensive to retrofit they should've been in since the start. Can anyone point to any city that has lost money by having them installed? Sounds like the province is showing examples of cities where they have paid off.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Recently fare checks have been increased and the fine quadrupled to just over $170. This was done after translink did a study on fare evasion and realized that the current system and fine was not sufficient. i have no problem with you not paying the fact remains that if you dont pay you will eventually get fined with the fine being greater then any savings you have had by not paying your fares. those are the odds with the level of enforcement and high fine. anyways opinions are nice and all but numbers, stats, and real research are better. by the way i could tell you that fare evasion is no where near 30%, for our network now a days after the increased fines and enforcement fare evasion is going to be well under 5%(hit up translink for info) and that small percentage that dont pay are mostly going to be people who cant pay because like i said you cant save any money by not paying.

TransLink didn't reveal the true numbers... as we hae discussed before. Now the "30%" number from the Provincal Government and the media (CanWest) may seem a little too large, but it's true. If we were to keep the current system of Proof-of-payment, we would not be able to change our fare-system or impelement smart-cards. One of the many flaws in our system include this:
If I were to purchase a two-zone fare in Zone 2, I can technically ride the SkyTrain on Zone 1 and 3. There is no way I can get caught.
Bu
The Proof-of-Payment is VERY idealistic. As cornholio said, we can put more transit police and skytrain attendants... but unfortunately, that doesn't work. Many of them just stand around doing nothing - putting more is just a waste of tax dollars. Now if we put the gates, it would be stopping our fare evaders and forcing new attendants to do their job properly. Putting actual gates will also allow us to implement Smart cards. The gates solve the problem of fare evasion, safety and security within the system (though I would say putting Transit Police in and around the stations should be done as well) and potentially increase ridership, which is the goal of many urban planners and the Provincal government.

Regarding the early date of the gates, maybe some stations would see this for sure, such as the M-Line stations.

[lightrail]

There was a concern that gates would slow down traffic, mainly from the many people transferring from bus to train. I don't think that has to be the case. Some options:

1. stops for busy routes, such as the B-line, could be put behind the gates in the fare paid zone - similar to Toronto. The assumption is everybody on the bus has already paid. Of course, to board the bus, people would have to go through the gates and pay. This would be a great treatment of the b-line as it then strengthens the rapid transit aspect of the service. Surely Broadway-Commercial station can be redesigned to incorporate a B-line loading/unloading platform behind the barriers?

2. use the high-speed gates they use in Europe - not Turnstiles. These are shoulder height half-gates that flip open fast. You place your Translink magnetic ticket into the machine - the door opens, you walk through, and then retrieve your ticket from the other side of the machine before continuing. These gates are used on entry and on exit. On exit, if you did not buy the correct ticket, you'll need to pay the additional fare before you can exit the system.

Mot an issue here - but in the UK, the system is such that tickets from any operator can be read - so the Underground in London can read tickets issued by the national railway companies - which allows through ticketing by any company, and allows quick remote reprogramming to accept certain tickets during times of service disruptions on other services.

[officedweller]

Toronto uses bus loops that are isolated (inaccessible) from the street with direct access from an underground corridor in order to be "paid" areas. To access one of those bus loops from the street, you need to enter through the station, even if you are not taking the subway.

Broadway - Commercial Station doesn't have much space to do that. It may be possible on the south side of Broadway (beside the CIBC, but that would require M-Line users to go up and down over Broadway to access it. They could also build a bridge and provide it on Grandview Highway North, but they would have to close off the sidewalk to other pedestrians.

The Richmond Brighouse Station will also use a street-oriented transit mall for its bus stops instead of a bus loop - to encourage pedestrian activity in the area. Many of the other stations have long distances at grade between the bus loop and the station. Short of fencing those corridors and bus loops (to the exclusion of passengers entering from the street), it would be difficult even at stations with traditional bus loops.