Compass & Fare Gates Discussion | u/c - Page 56

mr.x · #**1101** Posted: **Jul 20, 2011, 8:07 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Why is it strange to be worried about their aesthetics??? Of course functionality comes first (I have always been a big proponent of that, often supporting elevated transit / road structures) but after that comes aesthetics (again, suggesting that we can beautify such elevated structures in many ways using lights, signage, nicer curves on the pillars themselves, etc...). These gates will be at every transit station we have, they will be a big part of our city due to that factor, and they will be one of the first things that greet international travelers as they enter our city from the airport, you are darn right I want them to look polished in nature. The same way I want our train cars and platforms to look good. For you could ask why do people care what the trains looks like? As long as they are functional...

Exactly. The little things do add up, although I wouldn't exactly call this "little".

And although they are clean, for other reasons besides design, the Canada Line Rotems still look like absolute crap to me.

peterprinciple · #**1102** Posted: **Jul 20, 2011, 8:34 PM**

Seriously? The Otter Card is the most popular choice?

LeftCoaster · #**1103** Posted: **Jul 20, 2011, 8:58 PM**

Its completely assanine to get worked up over something absolutely trivial like faregate asthetics. 99% of people dont care so why spend more money than we have to because another systems look arbitrarily prettier than ours do.

The bid was a competitive tender, we got the system that matched our specifications for the best price... I for one am quite happy we arent paying more for a prettier door.

officedweller · #**1104** Posted: **Jul 20, 2011, 10:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac Write

Those Muni faregates are extremely easy to get through without paying. Watch this video

I think that's because you don't need to tap out there when you exit - there's a light sensor that triggers the gate to open from the other side when someone approaches - that's what the people are triggering to open the gate.

I hear TransLink will require you to tap out to exit the system (i.e. in anticipation of distance based fares) - so presumably no light sensor.

deasine · #**1105** Posted: **Jul 20, 2011, 10:46 PM**

I think many of the comments about the aesthetics and speed of the fare gates are uncalled for. If you have been to London, you would know that the gates they use are incredibly robust and industrial. My friend and I had our luggage stuck, and there was no way you can yank the gates open. These are situations where you would probably need an attendant to assist with opening the gates.

Speed wise, the London ones aren't the fastest (but way faster than the MUNI video ones). However, by the time you walk to the fare gate after you tap your Oyster Card, they would have been already open.

If I would be worried about anything about the smartcard and faregates, I'm more worried about the fact that cards in my wallet would be demagnetized after using these. The Oyster Card pamphlet explicitly states to not put the card in the wallet as it will demagnetize other cards, which is why they have "Oyster Card Sleeves."

SpongeG · #**1106** Posted: **Jul 20, 2011, 10:58 PM**

what happens with things like a U-Pass? there is not strip or anything - do u have to line up to get your card inspected?

jlousa · #**1107** Posted: **Jul 20, 2011, 11:01 PM**

Pretty sure when the time comes the U-pass will be made to work with the compass system.

SpongeG · #**1108** Posted: **Jul 20, 2011, 11:09 PM**

so is it still years away? seems like forever

twoNeurons · #**1109** Posted: **Jul 20, 2011, 11:11 PM**

Functionally speaking... I would've preferred always open faregates. Those faregates can handle a LOT more people and make the entrance more open and inviting to paid users. They're also lower maintenance as the majority pay their fare.

The Japanese faregates use this principle. There are gates at the end of each side that flip in if your fare is invalid. You have to pass a sensor.

They're probably more expensive to implement and to be honest... wouldn't work in their current form here.

• Video Link

WHY?

A. Perception. Low fare gates make people FEEL they wasted a lot of money on Fare Gates only to make them easy to circumvent.

Perception is important.

The majority of fare evasion today is likely

"Zone-based" (Not buying a 2-zone or 3-zone)
"time-based" (Extending 15-30minutes past the ticket time)
and "'honest' thieves" (those who fare evade because they can but wouldn't if there was fear of embarrassment).

We're trying to stop the majority. Even waist-high gates that were relatively easy to hop would probably stop the majority of fare evasion.

Chronic fare-evaders will hop ANY gate or find other means to circumvent the system and the more difficult we make the system to cheat, the more resources are focused on relatively few. There is a diminishing level of returns.

As long as people FEEL the system is 90% effective, the investment will be worth it.

BCPhil · #**1110** Posted: **Jul 20, 2011, 11:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think that's because you don't need to tap out there when you exit - there's a light sensor that triggers the gate to open from the other side when someone approaches - that's what the people are triggering to open the gate.

I hear TransLink will require you to tap out to exit the system (i.e. in anticipation of distance based fares) - so presumably no light sensor.

Exactly. The MUNI gates are different than almost every other gate in the world in that there are motion sensors on the gates that allow people to exit the gate without tapping out. So people take advantage of the design feature. It's not technically a bug as the gates are supposed to let people out without taping; it's an exploit of a poorly thought out idea. Our gates will require riders to tap out, just like almost every other gated system in existence, so it won't have any of the problems the MUNI gates have.

The MUNI gates have swipe readers on them for the MUNI single day fare tickets, as well as some of the older fare media which they are phasing out.

Which brings up an interesting point. Translink should launch the new farecard before the gates are ready. People should get used to using a card and topping it up and tapping it at buses and stations before having to deal with the faregates. That way they don't need to worry about phasing out paper tickets.

The MUNI gates are slow, but they are designed that way. It keeps people from getting hit by fast moving gates. And yes, the gates are programmed to stay open between users a bit so that the next user does not have to wait for the gate to close before tapping their card. That way when there is a line of people, they can all pass through without the gates continuously opening and closing, wasting time. Yes, it means people can just sneak in through the line, but there are ways to detect people passing through that haven't tapped their card and police could be notified.

Even in systems where there are gates, like London, police still do fare checks to ensure people have properly paid or tapped. Without police checking fares on our Skytrain after the gates are in, everyone will just buy concession fares and cheat the system that way (like many already do, I swear almost half the riders I see getting caught by police have either an unscratched 1 zone card or concession fare, so there are a lot of half cheaters out there).

I actually like the look of the gates just fine. They are rather slender with more organic curves. The ones from Japan that I have seen look a little too short and fat, just the right height for people to hop over without drawing any attention. In fact I bet I could step over the Japanese ones without breaking stride (I guess I'm just taller than most in Japan though).

At least the gates we are getting offer a proper challenge to keep people from easily jumping them and offer a more visual form of reassurance to people looking for a safe system, without them being floor to ceiling, cattle herding like, monstrosities.

jhausner · #**1111** Posted: **Jul 20, 2011, 11:21 PM**

Because as the poster above said, the look of the fairgates don't really matter. I don't know a single person who has traveled the world and come back saying "WOW Paris was amazing, you should really check out their metro fairgates."

SpongeG · #**1112** Posted: **Jul 20, 2011, 11:24 PM**

speaking of fare evasion - a couple weeks ago i was on the train at braid - a guy got on and said get your tickets out for a fare check and one guy jumped off the train at that point and a girl just across from me had no ticket at all and the guy checking her said okay get off at the next station and buy a ticket - no ticket or fine for her

are they just selective? why did she get let go? i've seen loads of people getting written up too but it doesn't seem fair if they don't ticket everyone who doesn't pay

Metro-One · #**1113** Posted: **Jul 20, 2011, 11:30 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhausner

Because as the poster above said, the look of the fairgates don't really matter. I don't know a single person who has traveled the world and come back saying "WOW Paris was amazing, you should really check out their metro fairgates."

Most people don't give a crap about the look of a metro station either, and don't come back saying "Wow, you should really check out their station platforms" Yet many on here seemed very critical on the aesthetics of the Canada Line signage and general station lay outs, etc...

I just think they look very cheep, especially that 1980ish looking digital signage with the x or arrow. looks very old, flimsy and generally goofy.

Trust me, a lot goes into aesthetic design regarding everyday objects that people don't think twice about or go bragging to others about than you may think...

DKaz · #**1114** Posted: **Jul 21, 2011, 12:42 AM**

Actually I think the open gate concept in Japan is great as well. It remains open so long you tap before you go through. I wrote a short story in creative writing class before that featured this... don't have it with me but went something along the lines of stumbling drunk off the train up the stairs and towards the station exit. Went to tap out and proceed through the gate when all of a sudden the gates slammed shut painfully (from experience, I don't quite remember the slamming being painful, it's more of an embarrassment really, but I thought a drunk person would find it more painful than embarrassing). Cursed profoundly, in English, obviously making a scene of being a typical loud mouth gaijin with the onlookers observing the scene. Someone staying at the same guesthouse recognizes him, sees the problem: it's a farecard from Canada. Helps find the IOCard in his wallet and helps him exit the station.

DKaz · #**1115** Posted: **Jul 21, 2011, 1:20 AM**

Damn I didn't get to the point lol. The point is, they don't have to wait for doors to close/open, as long as each person inserts or taps, it's a freeflow where you can have almost two people per second per gate go through with tap. Inserting the ticket takes a bit longer, maybe one person per second. The tap cards were introduced around the time I was in Japan in 2001 because they are faster.

twoNeurons · #**1116** Posted: **Jul 21, 2011, 4:36 AM**

And once you get the ticket system down it's super fast as well. Unlike our cubic system, which once accepts a fare inserted a specific way, it will accept the ticket any which way you put it in and spit it out half a second later on the other side so you pick it up in stride.

aagolder · #**1117** Posted: **Jul 21, 2011, 4:41 AM**

For use of the Compass card on buses (and future LRT) do we know if they will be using a system similar the GVB OV- chipkaart in NL, where your fare is based on the distance or time of your trip, or just a flat rate?

Spork · #**1118** Posted: **Jul 21, 2011, 4:57 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by aagolder

For use of the Compass card on buses (and future LRT) do we know if they will be using a system similar the GVB OV- chipkaart in NL, where your fare is based on the distance or time of your trip, or just a flat rate?

I don't think that they have fully made that decision yet. There was a Translink Listens panel survey on that a few months ago (within the last 4, I'd say) to see how people felt about distance-based fares. I was all for them, of course.

LeftCoaster · #**1119** Posted: **Jul 21, 2011, 1:43 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by officedweller

I hear TransLink will require you to tap out to exit the system (i.e. in anticipation of distance based fares) - so presumably no light sensor.

That's great. After experiencing Singapore's distance based system I really think they are the far superior option. Only problem is on a crowded bus you can scan out before you actually exit the bus and pay for a far shorter ride than you actually took. Can't really see a way around that problem either, aside from just having a high entrance fee and low $/km charges.

jhausner · #**1120** Posted: **Jul 21, 2011, 2:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Most people don't give a crap about the look of a metro station either, and don't come back saying "Wow, you should really check out their station platforms" Yet many on here seemed very critical on the aesthetics of the Canada Line signage and general station lay outs, etc...

I just think they look very cheep, especially that 1980ish looking digital signage with the x or arrow. looks very old, flimsy and generally goofy.

Trust me, a lot goes into aesthetic design regarding everyday objects that people don't think twice about or go bragging to others about than you may think...

You mean Canada Line stations look cheap? Interesting since during the Olympics I was on Canada Line a lot and heard a lot of comments from people not from Vancouver saying the Canada Line stations looked very modern, clean, and slick.

I guess it is all about perspective. Same with fair gates. Some people think it is important, some don't. I happen to think if it looks clean and is clear, then I'm happy. Same with the fair gates. If they get the job done then I'm happy.