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  #1  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 11:52 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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NYC/Fairfield, LA/Inland Empire, the Bay Area...

Anyone have links to data on commuting patterns? How close does Fairfield County come to the threshold of joining the New York MSA, Riverside and San Bernadino to joining the L.A. MSA and the SF/Oakland and San Jose MSAs merging into one?
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  #2  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 11:53 PM
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Train Commute times from Stanford and Greenwich rival those from many outer borough locations. Absolutely part of nycs core urban area, at least south of the Merritt parkway.
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  #3  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 11:55 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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In the past the Census Bureau used towns rather than counties for New England when defining metropolitan areas.
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  #4  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 1:59 AM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Anyone have links to data on commuting patterns? How close does Fairfield County come to the threshold of joining the New York MSA, Riverside and San Bernadino to joining the L.A. MSA and the SF/Oakland and San Jose MSAs merging into one?
I think Fairfield County was in the New York MSA as recently as the last couple years. The western half of the Inland Empire should be but arbitrary lines deem otherwise.
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  #5  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 2:01 AM
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The New Haven line is, by far, the busiest commuter rail line in North America, so there's plenty of commuting between the MSAs. I have no idea how "close" SW CT is to becoming part of the NYC MSA, though.

I would imagine, however, the issue isn't not enough commuters to Manhattan from CT, it's that Stamford and other CT cities are pretty important suburban business centers in their own right. That's why sleepy bedroom towns in NE PA are part of the NYC MSA, while urban towns in CT a few miles from the Bronx aren't.
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  #6  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 2:32 AM
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I will never understand how Lehigh Valley PA is part of the NYC MSA but Bridgeport-Stamford is not.
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  #7  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 2:47 AM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
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The Stamford part is a recent thing. Fairfield County was in New York MSA until recently.
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  #8  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 9:04 AM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
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Also, I think the real question is ifJacksonville is part of New York's MSA.

There, I beat you to it.
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  #9  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 11:54 AM
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I will never understand how Lehigh Valley PA is part of the NYC MSA but Bridgeport-Stamford is not.
It isn't. The Lehigh Valley is part of the NYC CSA, not the MSA.

Stamford is the most important business center in the metro outside of Manhattan, so is likely a major regional job hub.

The Lehigh Valley has cheap housing, low taxes and lots of sprawl, so has become a popular destination for commuters.
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  #10  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 12:03 PM
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LMich LMich is offline
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We've kind of been over the San Francisco/San Jose one a million times. It's the one most egregious example of the current limitations of how they dileanate these. Basically, the statistical merging of urban areas to formed a new MSA only occurs under the strictest of circumstances, and the other criteria for merging MSAs (25% commuting threshold between the "central" counties) isn't met between the two.

People complain about the physical size of American metropolitan statistical areas, but the truth is that it's kind of a mixed bag. The criteria advantages an isolated metro to "grow," whereas really established regions with multiple strong cores can literally grow into one another in a spatial sense and still don't constitute a metropolitan area because the smaller cores keep a lot of their commuters in county. A great local example of this are Ann Arbor and Detroit, two urban areas which the Census officially showed had grown together at 2010, but whose metros will likely not join any time soon because the Ann Arbor urban area accounts for far more of the population in the country than the Detroit urban area, and because the MSA/county keeps far more of its commuters than it sends to the central counties of the Detroit MSA, even though the interchange rate is well over the 25% threshold.

Anyway, the Census/OMB is doing a fairly major revision of delineation criteria this year. We'll see which factors they change.

EDIT: Did the tedious work for calculating the commuter interchange between the central counties of the NYC MSA and Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk MSA (Fairfield County), and what I got is that is that it's nowhere near being pulled in as part of the MSA. Fairfield County sends 12.9% of its resident workers to the NYC MSA. You need a full 25% to qualify to be included in an MSA or that more than half the population in an urban area within the smaller MSA must be from the urban area of the larger MSA spilling over into the smaller MSA. To figure out the CSA is't the total exchange between all counties in each MSA, not just the core. I imagine, then, that Fairfield is probably even barely within the CSA when you add in the additional NYC MSA outyling counties.
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Last edited by LMich; Jan 25, 2018 at 10:48 AM.
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  #11  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 1:22 PM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
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I don't know what the solution is. The Bay Area looks worse when it's seen as an Urban Area than even an MSA. Baltimore and Washington are split again, which is just ridiculous.

I guess it just requires people to have an intelligent, discerning eye. Media market is probably the best.
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  #12  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 3:57 PM
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I lived in the Boston CSA (southern NH) and a lot of my neighbors made that 60-70 mile trek every day into Boston.
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  #13  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 5:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePhun1 View Post
I don't know what the solution is. The Bay Area looks worse when it's seen as an Urban Area than even an MSA. Baltimore and Washington are split again, which is just ridiculous.

I guess it just requires people to have an intelligent, discerning eye. Media market is probably the best.

yeah i was thinking media market too. however, with the state of broadcast media in flux i'm not sure how helpful it is to look at too closely anymore. its probably still the best though.
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  #14  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2018, 5:57 AM
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xzmattzx xzmattzx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
It isn't. The Lehigh Valley is part of the NYC CSA, not the MSA.

Stamford is the most important business center in the metro outside of Manhattan, so is likely a major regional job hub.

The Lehigh Valley has cheap housing, low taxes and lots of sprawl, so has become a popular destination for commuters.
Most people who commute in the Lehigh Valley commute to Philadelphia.

These MSAs and CSAs are getting a little ridiculous. Lehigh Valley is intertwined with the Poconos, which is a bedroom community for commuters to North Jersey, which is part of New York City's MSA, so the Lehigh Valley is now part of the New York City CSA?

I railed against this with Cecil County, Maryland, being part of Philadelphia's MSA. It's in there because people in Elkton commute to Newark, and people in Newark commute to Wilmington, and despite Wilmington being the center of our own metro area, the cross-commuting is big enough to make Wilmington part of the Philadelphia MSA. Ergo, Elkton is a Philadelphia suburb.

I'm waiting for the commuting to New York City form Philadelphia to become strong enough that even a top 10 city is listed as a suburb of another city. It won't stop there. San Diego will become a suburb of Los Angeles! Milwaukee will become a suburb of Chicago! Vancouver will become a suburb of Seattle! Maybe even Washington DC and Baltimore will become suburbs of New York City!
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  #15  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2018, 7:38 AM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
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I know you're just joshing around but they'd be co-anchors, not suburbs of one another. Even Newark is a co-anchor city with New York.
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  #16  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2018, 2:40 PM
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cannedairspray cannedairspray is offline
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I can't imagine Baltimore becoming a suburb of DC in this century, but much to the chagrin of proudest residents of each, they're pretty much in the same urban area. Media markets works in some ways, but doesn't in others. They're not getting each others nightly news, but they are getting each others televised sporting events.
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  #17  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2018, 2:40 PM
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Originally Posted by xzmattzx View Post
Most people who commute in the Lehigh Valley commute to Philadelphia.
Not true. More people from Leigh Valley are commuting to NYC. That's exactly how CSAs are calculated..

Why would supercommuters from Lehigh Valley go to Philly? That makes no sense. It only makes sense to live a billion miles from your workplace if there's a difference in housing costs.
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Originally Posted by xzmattzx View Post
These MSAs and CSAs are getting a little ridiculous. Lehigh Valley is intertwined with the Poconos, which is a bedroom community for commuters to North Jersey, which is part of New York City's MSA, so the Lehigh Valley is now part of the New York City CSA?
It has nothing to do with the Poconos. One county in the Poconos has been part of the NYC MSA, for decades. One county in the Lehigh Valley is part of the NYC CSA (not MSA), and is a recent addition. They're both fairly lightly populated counties, with little economic might, so don't make much difference anyways.
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  #18  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2018, 2:58 PM
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Originally Posted by cannedairspray View Post
I can't imagine Baltimore becoming a suburb of DC in this century, but much to the chagrin of proudest residents of each, they're pretty much in the same urban area. Media markets works in some ways, but doesn't in others. They're not getting each others nightly news, but they are getting each others televised sporting events.
They struck me more as a "looser" DFW type of relationship (more or less equals) than anything else. Dallas and Fort Worth have their own distinct identities and are far enough from each other to have their own suburbs but are still one metro. DC/ Baltimore are even further apart...
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  #19  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2018, 3:05 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
They struck me more as a "looser" DFW type of relationship (more or less equals) than anything else. Dallas and Fort Worth have their own distinct identities and are far enough from each other to have their own suburbs but are still one metro. DC/ Baltimore are even further apart...
I've sadly not spent much time in the DFW, but I seem to remember either the light rail connects the two or that there's plans to in the very near future. While there's commuter rail between Baltimore's Penn Station and DC's Union Station that only takes 45ish minutes to travel, the whole area would be a lot cooler if the Metro could extend to Baltimore, ideally, but BWI more realistically.

But I digress.
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  #20  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2018, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by cannedairspray View Post
I can't imagine Baltimore becoming a suburb of DC in this century, but much to the chagrin of proudest residents of each, they're pretty much in the same urban area. Media markets works in some ways, but doesn't in others. They're not getting each others nightly news, but they are getting each others televised sporting events.
Miami and West Palm Beach are that way too. Different media markets but one metro, one urban area, connected by commuter rail (soon to be a much better quicker rail).
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