HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Manitoba & Saskatchewan

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2010, 5:51 PM
Bdog's Avatar
Bdog Bdog is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1,824
Winnipeg - Surface Lots Downtown

Quote:
They're creepy, weedy, windy wastelands that contribute to the sense of permanent decay downtown.

They were a major issue in this fall's civic election and now the city's plethora of surface parking lots are the subject of some messy internal politics at city hall.

According to a Free Press analysis, downtown Winnipeg has at least 154 lots with a combined value of well over $78 million -- a lowball estimate, but a starting point. Those lots cover more than 22 hectares, about the size of 38 Canadian football fields.

That's enough parking for almost 20,000 vehicles, a tidbit to remember next time you complain you can't find a spot.

In North American cities from Milwaukee to Denver, surface lots are both a vital service and an urban planning plague, a cause and a symptom of struggling downtowns...
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bre...111312094.html

I can't remember if there was already a thread dedicated to this, but we seem to discuss this topic a lot: What to do with the surface lots downtown?

Is it economically feasible to redevelop them at this point? Are parkades profitable without a sharp reduction in surface lots? Are Winnipeggers willing to go downtown if there is more expensive parking?

Discuss...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2010, 6:38 PM
Winnipegger Winnipegger is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdog View Post
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bre...111312094.html

I can't remember if there was already a thread dedicated to this, but we seem to discuss this topic a lot: What to do with the surface lots downtown?

Is it economically feasible to redevelop them at this point? Are parkades profitable without a sharp reduction in surface lots? Are Winnipeggers willing to go downtown if there is more expensive parking?

Discuss...
I think the truth is that someone makes a lot of money off of surface parking lots. They are a guaranteed source of income. If you think about it, Winnipeg is a cold city, and lots of people work downtown. There will always be a demand for parking, and since surface lots cost next to nothing to maintain (or so I would assume judging from their appearance), they are cash cows.

My guess would be that if we turned them all into three storey parkades, we would have 2/3 less parking lots, no? But building and maintaining parking lots are much cheaper than building parkades. And say we did reduce the number of surface parking lots downtown by 66%, I doubt all those extra lots would get filled in immediately. Upon seeing that, many downtown workers would say "see, I told you so." because we would just have a bunch of empty lots downtown with no parking nor building on them.

Of course, the most logical solution to that would be to put some sort of priority on redevelopment of those lots, but then again, every time you redevelop a lot, a couple hundred downtown workers lose their parking spot and it makes their day just that much more stressful.

We could also move the lots underground and build on top of them, but again, that is much more expensive than an open surface lot.

My non-totalitarian suggestion would be cap the amount of surface lots right now and don't allow anymore to be built. As time goes own and downtown develops, the increased demand for parking would put pressure on current stall prices, raising their costs until the point where a lot of people could not afford to park there anymore and would switch to an alternative such as transit, or it becomes profitable for developers to build parkades/underground lots. With enough pressure and demand, we could even see an improved transportation system reach downtown.

Just my two cents though.
__________________
Progress can be made
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2010, 3:20 AM
JayM's Avatar
JayM JayM is offline
Youth of a Nation
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Posts: 1,196
I briefly read this WFP article its disgusting.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2010, 5:16 AM
roccerfeller's Avatar
roccerfeller roccerfeller is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 2,399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnipegger View Post
I think the truth is that someone makes a lot of money off of surface parking lots. They are a guaranteed source of income. If you think about it, Winnipeg is a cold city, and lots of people work downtown. There will always be a demand for parking, and since surface lots cost next to nothing to maintain (or so I would assume judging from their appearance), they are cash cows.

My guess would be that if we turned them all into three storey parkades, we would have 2/3 less parking lots, no? But building and maintaining parking lots are much cheaper than building parkades. And say we did reduce the number of surface parking lots downtown by 66%, I doubt all those extra lots would get filled in immediately. Upon seeing that, many downtown workers would say "see, I told you so." because we would just have a bunch of empty lots downtown with no parking nor building on them.

Of course, the most logical solution to that would be to put some sort of priority on redevelopment of those lots, but then again, every time you redevelop a lot, a couple hundred downtown workers lose their parking spot and it makes their day just that much more stressful.

We could also move the lots underground and build on top of them, but again, that is much more expensive than an open surface lot.


My non-totalitarian suggestion would be cap the amount of surface lots right now and don't allow anymore to be built. As time goes own and downtown develops, the increased demand for parking would put pressure on current stall prices, raising their costs until the point where a lot of people could not afford to park there anymore and would switch to an alternative such as transit, or it becomes profitable for developers to build parkades/underground lots. With enough pressure and demand, we could even see an improved transportation system reach downtown.

Just my two cents though.
great read, great post man!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2010, 5:17 AM
roccerfeller's Avatar
roccerfeller roccerfeller is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 2,399
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayM View Post
I briefly read this WFP article its disgusting.
I concur.

Especially how the article points out Main street....Main has soooo much more potential.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2010, 4:09 PM
thurmas's Avatar
thurmas thurmas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 758
The 3 worst one's that need to be a target is on york across from the convention centre. Hopefully the centre will expand there soon across the street. At portage and main next to canwest, TD or is it shaw now oh whatever it's name is now tower that ugly gravel lot that makes downtown look abandoned and like Detroit. Finally that ugly stretch on Graham needs either commercial or condos developed. The area around the ballpark will probably develop itself because of demand for that area in the future and the forks desire to expand itself.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2010, 5:01 AM
armorand93's Avatar
armorand93 armorand93 is offline
Winnipeg Transit Nerd
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnipegger View Post
I think the truth is that someone makes a lot of money off of surface parking lots. They are a guaranteed source of income. If you think about it, Winnipeg is a cold city, and lots of people work downtown. There will always be a demand for parking, and since surface lots cost next to nothing to maintain (or so I would assume judging from their appearance), they are cash cows.

My guess would be that if we turned them all into three storey parkades, we would have 2/3 less parking lots, no? But building and maintaining parking lots are much cheaper than building parkades. And say we did reduce the number of surface parking lots downtown by 66%, I doubt all those extra lots would get filled in immediately. Upon seeing that, many downtown workers would say "see, I told you so." because we would just have a bunch of empty lots downtown with no parking nor building on them.

Of course, the most logical solution to that would be to put some sort of priority on redevelopment of those lots, but then again, every time you redevelop a lot, a couple hundred downtown workers lose their parking spot and it makes their day just that much more stressful.

We could also move the lots underground and build on top of them, but again, that is much more expensive than an open surface lot.

My non-totalitarian suggestion would be cap the amount of surface lots right now and don't allow anymore to be built. As time goes own and downtown develops, the increased demand for parking would put pressure on current stall prices, raising their costs until the point where a lot of people could not afford to park there anymore and would switch to an alternative such as transit, or it becomes profitable for developers to build parkades/underground lots. With enough pressure and demand, we could even see an improved transportation system reach downtown.

Just my two cents though.
LIGHT RAPID TRANSIT WITH PARK AND RIDE! problem solved.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2010, 2:12 PM
h0twired's Avatar
h0twired h0twired is offline
Dynamic Positivity!
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,549
Quote:
Originally Posted by armorand93 View Post
LIGHT RAPID TRANSIT WITH PARK AND RIDE! problem solved.
The parking lots are supposed to be in the suburbs. Why would anyone park and ride FROM their destination.

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2010, 5:37 PM
roccerfeller's Avatar
roccerfeller roccerfeller is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 2,399
Quote:
Originally Posted by thurmas View Post
The 3 worst one's that need to be a target is on york across from the convention centre. Hopefully the centre will expand there soon across the street. At portage and main next to canwest, TD or is it shaw now oh whatever it's name is now tower that ugly gravel lot that makes downtown look abandoned and like Detroit. Finally that ugly stretch on Graham needs either commercial or condos developed. The area around the ballpark will probably develop itself because of demand for that area in the future and the forks desire to expand itself.

Hopefully indeed...according to their website http://www.wcc.mb.ca/expandingforsuccess.php they still have the current plan

page 13 of their plan http://www.wcc.mb.ca/pdf/expandingfo...an-cct2008.pdf

suggests that by the end of this year they will have some working drawings, with construction not starting till April of next year (!) and finishing until March 2013 (estimated).

Also from page 13 "The planned expansion envisions increasing the rentable space from 160,000 sq. ft.
to 306,881 sq. ft., an increase of 146,881 sq. ft. In total the square footage of the
Winnipeg Convention Centre would be increased by 467,193 sq. ft. (from 523,776 sq. ft.
to 990,969 sq. ft.)
."

I dont think that includes the hotel either, which would be built on top of the extension

either way, its a parking lot put to good use!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2010, 7:03 PM
Riverman's Avatar
Riverman Riverman is offline
Fossil fuel & rubber
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Winnipeg/Toronto
Posts: 2,330
^^^ Is there funding in place for this? It appears to be a proposal, nothing more.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2010, 8:41 PM
armorand93's Avatar
armorand93 armorand93 is offline
Winnipeg Transit Nerd
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by h0twired View Post
The parking lots are supposed to be in the suburbs. Why would anyone park and ride FROM their destination.

should've defined that clearly lmfao. park and ride IN THE SUBURBS, which will free up parking downtown, which will THEN allow buildings to be constructed (such as the convention centre expansion)

for example, could get LRT down Portage (or St. Matthews) to Polo Park, and build another parkade near the Bay for Park n Ride. That or use the existing parkades at Polo
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2010, 9:03 PM
h0twired's Avatar
h0twired h0twired is offline
Dynamic Positivity!
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,549
Quote:
Originally Posted by armorand93 View Post
should've defined that clearly lmfao. park and ride IN THE SUBURBS, which will free up parking downtown, which will THEN allow buildings to be constructed (such as the convention centre expansion)

for example, could get LRT down Portage (or St. Matthews) to Polo Park, and build another parkade near the Bay for Park n Ride. That or use the existing parkades at Polo
Parking lots aren't stopping buildings from being built.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2010, 10:08 PM
bicycles bicycles is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by h0twired View Post
Parking lots aren't stopping buildings from being built.
if people don't use them, whoever owns them won't be making money, thus they'll do something else with the property (build something)

Last edited by bicycles; Dec 8, 2010 at 1:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2010, 12:16 AM
viperred88's Avatar
viperred88 viperred88 is offline
visionary
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wpg
Posts: 1,214
in true Winnipeg style all we are going to see more parking in form of parkades not even mix-use. Pathetic!!! So there you go more parking for suburbanites.

All we need is to lower taxes on lots for residential development thats if that can be done on those parking lots

I wonder if the Delta and the Fairmont would build new hotels downtown and sell off the existing ones for condo redevelopment. Since the delta and fairmont may want to compete with True North hotel soon to be, thats if that happens.
__________________
'We shape our buildings and then they shape us. They capture the Zeitgeist, the spirit of their time.'
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2010, 8:16 AM
armorand93's Avatar
armorand93 armorand93 is offline
Winnipeg Transit Nerd
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by viperred88 View Post
in true Winnipeg style all we are going to see more parking in form of parkades not even mix-use. Pathetic!!! So there you go more parking for suburbanites.

All we need is to lower taxes on lots for residential development thats if that can be done on those parking lots

I wonder if the Delta and the Fairmont would build new hotels downtown and sell off the existing ones for condo redevelopment. Since the delta and fairmont may want to compete with True North hotel soon to be, thats if that happens.
Wait what? True North Hotel? Sorry, I havent heard of this and I read the papers everyday haha

Use the parking lot across from whats now the CTV Studios as residential. A huge-ass 40 floor apartment complex or condo tower would bring more people in, reducing the need for commutin. Also, thanks to Zellers moving in to the Bay, those people can actually buy groceries in Downtown

And after that, finally complete Phase 1 and 2 of BRT or LRT. Major source of traffic problems solved.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2010, 1:52 PM
h0twired's Avatar
h0twired h0twired is offline
Dynamic Positivity!
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,549
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicycles View Post
if people don't use them, whoever owns them won't be making money, thus they'll do something else with the property (build something)
It would more likely remain a vacant lot.

The idea of people not using parking lots would indicate a dead downtown core with even less potential of new development.

Parking prices have a LONG way to go before people stop paying for parking and switch to transit. Calgary parking is still well over $20/day for a surface spot and people keep filling lots.

Winnipeg's problem is that commercial lease rates are too low to justify the construction costs of a new office tower. Just because a lot is not being used does not magically make it prime space for constructing an office building.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2010, 2:01 PM
Winnipegger@Heart Winnipegger@Heart is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 619
The problem is that government owns many lots, and that is contrary to the effort to increase housing downtown. All levels of government should sell the lots they own. In fact, I would give a developer a sweet deal if the lot would be replaced by rental units; with so many more people moving to the city, they need places to live.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2010, 2:51 PM
h0twired's Avatar
h0twired h0twired is offline
Dynamic Positivity!
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnipegger@Heart View Post
The problem is that government owns many lots, and that is contrary to the effort to increase housing downtown. All levels of government should sell the lots they own. In fact, I would give a developer a sweet deal if the lot would be replaced by rental units; with so many more people moving to the city, they need places to live.
Two problems with that.

- If the government was to give away land to a developer the entire populous would be up in arms for ultimately handing over "their" land to a private company. Besides, most of the government owned lots are adjacent to train tracks, historic sites (e.g. The Forks), or other government buildings (Winnipeg Convention Centre, Federal Building, Union Station etc). These properties are far too valuable to toss up an ugly box apartment for low income renters.

- The cost of the land is a drop in the bucket when it comes to building residential buildings. The cost of land isn't holding back developers in Winnipeg, its the cost of construction coupled with the expectation for cheap condos or artificially low rents.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2010, 3:32 PM
viperred88's Avatar
viperred88 viperred88 is offline
visionary
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wpg
Posts: 1,214
Quote:
Originally Posted by armorand93 View Post
Wait what? True North Hotel? Sorry, I havent heard of this and I read the papers everyday haha

Use the parking lot across from whats now the CTV Studios as residential. A huge-ass 40 floor apartment complex or condo tower would bring more people in, reducing the need for commutin. Also, thanks to Zellers moving in to the Bay, those people can actually buy groceries in Downtown

And after that, finally complete Phase 1 and 2 of BRT or LRT. Major source of traffic problems solved.
true north is in the midst acquiring the lot that A & B Sound is sitting on, or is it all the buildings that sitting on the lot. The plan is for a boutique hotel and office spaces.

Katz sorta mentioned it in the downtown debate...

Anyway I hope this happens, alot of recent arena in north america have built up the surrounding area with commercial and residential development. I just hope we get condos included true north vision for the entertainment district.
__________________
'We shape our buildings and then they shape us. They capture the Zeitgeist, the spirit of their time.'
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2010, 3:32 PM
rypinion's Avatar
rypinion rypinion is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: East Exchange, Winnipeg
Posts: 1,258
Quote:
Originally Posted by armorand93 View Post
Also, thanks to Zellers moving in to the Bay, those people can actually buy groceries in Downtown
The Bay has long had a grocery store in the basement, long before Zellers was even an idea.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Manitoba & Saskatchewan
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 8:08 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.