Highway 407 Extension

[vid]

Ring roads are used by more than people, you know. If the Thunder Bay Expressway didn't exist, my street would be full of transport trucks trying to get through the city.

[MolsonExport]

---sitting out this one with my popcorn---

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

That is another useless project that will only promote sprawl. Why does a tiny city like London need a ring road?

Have you ever been to London? Do you have any idea how big the city really is? (Hint: It's bigger than Halifax, Saskatoon, Regina, and Windsor)

I have been to Toronto many times, most recently two weeks ago. As a lifelong Londoner, going to Toronto is a break for me. Driving in Toronto and taking transit there is a breeze compared to London. Did you know it takes less time to cross Toronto than it does to get from one end of London to the other? Also, Toronto and the GTA have an amazing mass transit system we can only dream of in London. It takes more time for me to get to college by public transit than it takes to cross Toronto on the Bloor-Danforth subway.

Toronto has enough. Let's let the rest of the province get help for a change. There is no reason Toronto should be showered with gold and riches and the rest of us suffer through unemployment, and third-world public transit service and roads.

[vid]

It takes longer to get across Thunder Bay by bus than it does to go from one end of the Bloor-Danforth line to the other.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

That is another useless project that will only promote sprawl. Why does a tiny city like London need a ring road?

If the city and province are serious about increasing transit modal share in London. Than why a ring road?

Ignoring the fact that it's fundamentally infeasible to serve cities the size of London with transit alone, you obviously have no idea what a piece of shit this city's road system is. I wouldn't say that it takes longer to get across Toronto by car, but trying to cross London during the rush hour can literally take between 45 minutes and an hour going from the VMP to Hyde Park Road. You could just tell commuters to deal with it, its a result of cars, etc, etc, but what do you tell the manufacturers and other businesses who are based here? What do you tell the hundreds of small companies that rely on quick, predictable and efficient truck service? Do you tell them to deal with it? The number one way of killing off the economy in an industrial city like London is to cripple the road transport network further by sticking LRT down the main arterials without giving large vehicles an alternative means of transportation.

Come to London some day. You'll notice all the new job-producing industrial development (be it heavy industry, light manufacturing or high-tech) is situated by our shitty excuse for an expressway or by the 401/402. There's a reason why there's no industry of any kind in the West or North.

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Toronto has enough. Let's let the rest of the province get help for a change. There is no reason Toronto should be showered with gold and riches and the rest of us suffer through unemployment, and third-world public transit service and roads.

Toronto does not have enough. Its transit system is equally as pathetic as London's- in proportion, of course. They may have mass transit but in reality it serves only a very small area of the city- there are huge "dark pits" all over the place where there is no readily available or convenient access to public transit. Otherwise it's the same shitty bus as London or, alternatively, very lovely streetcars that come in packs of 5 every 20 minutes. Toronto needs more. London needs more. Ottawa needs more. All cities need more infrastructure investment, but the government is too busy spending the money on other useless shit to bother with it.

[Gdoggy]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Have you ever been to London? Do you have any idea how big the city really is? (Hint: It's bigger than Halifax, Saskatoon, Regina, and Windsor)

I'm sure mike plans to travel, just as soon as they build a subway from his house to where he would like to go.

The more he posts, the stupider his POV/ideas get.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Wharn

Toronto does not have enough. Its transit system is equally as pathetic as London's- in proportion, of course. They may have mass transit but in reality it serves only a very small area of the city- there are huge "dark pits" all over the place where there is no readily available or convenient access to public transit. Otherwise it's the same shitty bus as London or, alternatively, very lovely streetcars that come in packs of 5 every 20 minutes. Toronto needs more. London needs more. Ottawa needs more. All cities need more infrastructure investment, but the government is too busy spending the money on other useless shit to bother with it.

I will admit that New York City has a superior mass transit system to Toronto's, but of course their population is over three times larger than the GTA's. There is definitely room for greater integration between the various municipalities in the GTA. There is also room for improvement for connections from downtown to Pearson Airport, something that is being addressed.

However, it is still a far better system than London or Ottawa.

[Doady]

I'm not sure how anyone can support a highway ring around London, yet oppose this tolled 407 extension creating a ring around Pickering, Ajax, Whitby, and Oshawa, which have a higher combined population than London. Just sayin'.

[vid]

Numbers of freeways in London: 0
Numbers of freeways in Durham: 1

Therefore, it would make sense to put one in London before you put one in Durham. London is an entire city, Durham is just part of one. The businesses that would otherwise have located there have other options in the GTA. In London's case, they leave the city.

[niwell]

Seems to me it would make more sense to simply complete the West Durham Link portion of this, thus forming a complete ring (well, semi-circle) around Toronto. The current terminus of the 407 is really quite awkward.

Also I find the inclusion of a transitway through the green belt all the way to highway 115 a bit hilarious. It's almost as if someone just threw that on the map without even thinking.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by vid

Numbers of freeways in London: 0
Numbers of freeways in Durham: 1

Therefore, it would make sense to put one in London before you put one in Durham. London is an entire city, Durham is just part of one. The businesses that would otherwise have located there have other options in the GTA. In London's case, they leave the city.

There are no freeways in London? Right...

[flar]

^^just the 401, 402 and the Highbury Ave spur.

That said, the 401 and 402 go around the south and west of London. It actually is difficult to move within London.

[flar]

Originally Posted by niwell

Seems to me it would make more sense to simply complete the West Durham Link portion of this, thus forming a complete ring (well, semi-circle) around Toronto. The current terminus of the 407 is really quite awkward.

This is what I was thinking. Living in Ottawa and frequently traveling to Southwestern Ontario, I often take the 407 right to its eastern terminus. I would simply like it to connect to the 401 rather than just ending, the way it does. I have no suggestions on the exact routing, I just don't think it needs to extend as far as they have it on the map in the first post here.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by flar

^^just the 401, 402 and the Highbury Ave spur.

That said, the 401 and 402 go around the south and west of London. It actually is difficult to move within London.

I'm not saying that's wrong, but I'm just not sure how the lack of highways in London justifies building a highway around London, at least before completing the (tolled) highway around Toronto and several of its suburbs. Just seems bizarre considering how similar they are in concept and the massive population difference.

It seems to me that if someone supports a ring road around London, they should support this 407 extension as well. I don't support either (at least not right now). As I stated in my first post in the thread, the only new freeways I support are 400 to Sudbury, 411 to North Bay, and 417 to Sault Ste-Marie.

[flar]

I don't see how a ring road helps London either. The problem, at least back when I lived there, was always getting from say, Downtown to White Oaks, or from Old South to UWO, or Byron to Fanshawe College, that kind of thing. Takes a long time to travel the city through the city along streets like Oxford, Wharnecliffe, Richmond, Wellington, etc.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by flar

I don't see how a ring road helps London either. The problem, at least back when I lived there, was always getting from say, Downtown to White Oaks, or from Old South to UWO, or Byron to Fanshawe College, that kind of thing. Takes a long time to travel the city through the city along streets like Oxford, Wharnecliffe, Richmond, Wellington, etc.

Yeah, and even if you could build highways within London, I don't they would be much benefit either, considering the small size of the city. Winnipeg is twice the size of London, and it has no freeways either. Highwya around London might help divert traffic away within, but I don't see any major destination north of London, so it doesn't seem like divert much through traffic that isn't already taken care of by the 401 and 402.

I think biking and transit is the answer for London. It is the perfect size for biking, and it has a very high transit ridership already, so why not built on that? Why not build LRT? Instead they are building a BRT system that excludes UWO and takes BRT off of a large portion of Dundas in favour of Oxford St.

[MolsonExport]

biking in the snowbelt. sounds like fun. I can use a sled to haul my kids to school.


Unless amazingly concentrated/frequent (e.g., Downtown Toronto, Tokyo, etc.) public transit is just not a realistic option for multiple career families dropping their children off at school, etc. Can you imagine? Walk to bus with my two kids (aged 2 and 5)...maybe the weather is horrible. Wait for bus. Get on, take it, then transfer. Wait. Get on transfer. Walk from stop to daycare/school. Walk back to bus stop, wait, board bus to work, then walk from stop. Repeat in the evenings. 5 times per week.

Nofuckingway. My life is already far too busy. And before somebody tells me captain obvious shit (e.g.,to just live closer to work/school), I will say right away that with a car, my commute is about 10-15 minutes driving to/from, period (not counting getting out of car to drop off kids). So yeah, I live close to work/school. Walking/transit is NOT an option with my schedule and family circumstances. I cannot live where I work, nor near enough by to eliminate car from commute pattern.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

That is another useless project that will only promote sprawl. Why does a tiny city like London need a ring road?

I disagree. Have you looked at London from Google Maps lately? London is one of the most sprawled cities in Canada and thus has a very low population density.

Saying freeways create sprawl is simply not true. Need proof? Just look at London right now.

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Toronto has enough. Let's let the rest of the province get help for a change. There is no reason Toronto should be showered with gold and riches and the rest of us suffer through unemployment, and third-world public transit service and roads.

I disagree. All cities in Ontario are in dire need road/transit funding, including Toronto. Toronto's road and transit systems may be good compared to London, but it is an absolute joke on the international front.

Originally Posted by flar

I don't see how a ring road helps London either. The problem, at least back when I lived there, was always getting from say, Downtown to White Oaks, or from Old South to UWO, or Byron to Fanshawe College, that kind of thing. Takes a long time to travel the city through the city along streets like Oxford, Wharnecliffe, Richmond, Wellington, etc.

It's difficult to see how a ring road helps the situation in London because of the way Highway 402 was built.

Initially, Highway 402 would bypass the city to the north and hook up with Highway 401 at the 401/403 junction in Woodstock. The need for freeway links east and west connecting Highways 401 and 402 would then be justified for commuting purposes, thus completing London's ring road.
-But due to opposition, Highway 402 now meanders through farmlands southwest of the city and hooks up with the 401 in south London. It's a shame as it's original route is really needed for London and would make a much more direct connection to Sarnia/USA for drivers from the GTA. It's also better for those in Hamilton because the 403 would become the 402.

London is the largest city in North America that does not have a freeway for local/commuting traffic. Many people say Winnipeg, but that city does have some freeway portions along it's main routes but most of it is built to expressway standards.


Getting back on topic, I would prefer to see Highway 407 end somewhere on the 401 because then it's purpose of a tolled bypass is fulfilled. A link to the 35/115 could be made as an untolled highway as it would be a connector route, not a bypass.

I also continue to question the need for two connector highways between the 401 and 407. 1 is fine, but 2 seems like overkill to me.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

biking in the snowbelt. sounds like fun. I can use a sled to haul my kids to school.


Unless amazingly concentrated/frequent (e.g., Downtown Toronto, Tokyo, etc.) public transit is just not a realistic option for multiple career families dropping their children off at school, etc. Can you imagine? Walk to bus with my two kids (aged 2 and 5)...maybe the weather is horrible. Wait for bus. Get on, take it, then transfer. Wait. Get on transfer. Walk from stop to daycare/school. Walk back to bus stop, wait, board bus to work, then walk from stop. Repeat in the evenings. 5 times per week.

Nofuckingway. My life is already far too busy. And before somebody tells me captain obvious shit (e.g.,to just live closer to work/school), I will say right away that with a car, my commute is about 10-15 minutes driving to/from, period (not counting getting out of car to drop off kids). So yeah, I live close to work/school. Walking/transit is NOT an option with my schedule and family circumstances. I cannot live where I work, nor near enough by to eliminate car from commute pattern.

Umm, the reduced traffic congestion from higher transit use and biking benefits everyone, including drivers. Your type of small-minded thinking, however, benefits no one.

[miketoronto]

I have been to London and rather like the city to be honest.

London's traffic problems do not come from not having a freeway. They come from not having good enough transit and other alternatives, causing almost everyone to drive.

A freeway will just get clogged with cars, and you will be right back where you are.

Should Vancouver be upset they don't have a freeway, and that they stopped freeway being in the city?

Sorry guys, but if London really wants to make a mark and be a place people want to move to and invest, than it is going to have to hop onto a different kind of development pattern than it is doing now.

London could be like Vancouver was 30 or 40 years ago when they decided no freeways, and instead wanted to build a more transit, pedestrian, and bike friendly city.

I will stand by my word that a ring road will just undo any kind of planning that London has to make transit and other alternatives more attractive.

Now for trucks, fine you can look into how to address that issue. But I am sure it does not involve a ring road around the city.

London has catered to the car for decades. Its time to to move in a different direction.