Highway 407 Extension

[Blitz]

I disagree that the traffic problem is caused by a bad transit system. Windsor also has a bad transit system but there are no traffic problems in Windsor because if anyone needs to get across town there, they just get on the expressway.

Don't even get me started on the traffic problems in London, it's hell at rush hour trying to get across town. I've lived in London off and on for 6 years and the traffic is what I dislike most about the city. Pretty much everyone else I know who moved there from elsewhere says the same thing.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by Doady

Yeah, and even if you could build highways within London, I don't they would be much benefit either, considering the small size of the city. Winnipeg is twice the size of London, and it has no freeways either. Highwya around London might help divert traffic away within, but I don't see any major destination north of London, so it doesn't seem like divert much through traffic that isn't already taken care of by the 401 and 402.

Neither London nor Winnipeg are prime examples of urban planning. Why you use the lack of a freeway in one disaster to justify the cancellation of plans in another disaster is beyond me. London isn't that small either; it's one of the largest cities in North America with no internal freeway. And no, the Highbury micropenis doesn't count.

Originally Posted by Doady

I think biking and transit is the answer for London. It is the perfect size for biking, and it has a very high transit ridership already, so why not built on that? Why not build LRT? Instead they are building a BRT system that excludes UWO and takes BRT off of a large portion of Dundas in favour of Oxford St.

I agree that London also needs an LRT system of some sort to help with internal circulation. The ring road is supposed to serve fringe traffic, of which there is a lot. Biking in this place is infeasible for most of the year unfortunately. Yes the BRT system may be retarded and dysfunctional, but by and large these opinions seem to be propagated by someone who doesn't live here and doesn't visit all too often.

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I have been to London and rather like the city to be honest.

You should hang out somewhere East of Adelaide Street for the day, next time you come back of course. I'm sure you'll still be infatuated with our fair, clean city.

Originally Posted by miketoronto

London's traffic problems do not come from not having a freeway. They come from not having good enough transit and other alternatives, causing almost everyone to drive.

I think both the lack of a freeway and the lack of proper transit both contribute to our hopeless transport situation. There's no option for anyone to get anywhere.

Originally Posted by miketoronto

A freeway will just get clogged with cars, and you will be right back where you are.

Being an urban planning student you should know freeways don't necessarily induce demand for automobiles, a more likely contender is population growth. Case in point: Toronto has carried out virtually no expansion of its expressway network since the 1980s, yet demand for cars continues to grow. Likewise, there seem to be more cars in London clogging up the arterials than there were two decades ago, despite the fact that transit ridership has increased dramatically.

Originally Posted by miketoronto

London could be like Vancouver was 30 or 40 years ago when they decided no freeways, and instead wanted to build a more transit, pedestrian, and bike friendly city.

You're forgetting that Vancouver also benefits from a more temperate climate than London. Transit could be emphasized, yes, but frankly it's a nightmare to be a cyclist in this city during the winter. It gets to the point where there is nowhere left to put the snow. There's snow everywhere. The bike lanes disappear. The sidewalks are swallowed. Even some arterial lanes are lost to snowbanks. The snow may melt during the day and then freeze at night, making these ice ruts that are impossible to navigate. And on top of that there is the cold and the wind. There is NO WAY people are going to give up the comfort of their cars (or even the bus) for that commute year-round. Maybe for summer, and maybe for a small, select group.

This is, by the way, coming from someone who commutes by bike April through October. After that its my beloved LW200

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I will stand by my word that a ring road will just undo any kind of planning that London has to make transit and other alternatives more attractive.

Seems to work in Europe. Ring Road+Transit combo... how is that bad planning?

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Now for trucks, fine you can look into how to address that issue. But I am sure it does not involve a ring road around the city.

It sure as hell doesn't involve signalized arterials. We've tried that already, the results are... underwhelming.

Originally Posted by miketoronto

London has catered to the car for decades. Its time to to move in a different direction.

And how do you propose to redesign a stagnant industrial city to reduce the influence of the automobile?

EDIT: This looks like the TL;DR post of the century; sorry about that wall of text.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Doady

Umm, the reduced traffic congestion from higher transit use and biking benefits everyone, including drivers. Your type of small-minded thinking, however, benefits no one.

This coming from the guy who thinks immigrants should be restricted from Toronto.

Originally Posted by Doady

The problem with these new condos downtown is that there are two many immigrants and 905ers moving into them, and that's what's destroying downtown. Toronto should really severely limit development like Paris did, keep the housing costs extremely high to keep the riff-raff out and ensure the "criminal element" of the population stays in the outskirts of the city and in the suburbs where they belong, and at the same time preventing the boring 905ers from turning downtown Toronto in an equally boring place. It worked for Paris, it'll work for Toronto as well.

two many?

D'ohdy, you really don't have a clue. I spent 20 years hoofing it on the bus, so I don't need any lecturing from you. Do you have children? If you don't, then butt the fark out, because you just don't get it. The small mind in the room is you.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Doady

Umm, the reduced traffic congestion from higher transit use and biking benefits everyone, including drivers. Your type of small-minded thinking, however, benefits no one.

You have to concede that there are some people who can't practically use transit or bikes on a regular basis. It can be done, but is it practical? Maybe when his kids are older than 2 and 5 (say, 5 and 8) it will be possible in the summer but you have to accept that some people just can't make use of transit and honestly, for the sake of the transit system, I am not sure we want them to. My city's transit system basically serves only captive riders and it can barely cope with that; adding a bunch of choice riders would cripple it.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Wharn

Being an urban planning student you should know freeways don't necessarily induce demand for automobiles, a more likely contender is population growth. Case in point: Toronto has carried out virtually no expansion of its expressway network since the 1980s, yet demand for cars continues to grow. Likewise, there seem to be more cars in London clogging up the arterials than there were two decades ago, despite the fact that transit ridership has increased dramatically.

It's also worth noting that freeways and otherwise widened roads siphon traffic off other routes. For example, Riverside Drive in London used to be crowded during rush hour, until Oxford was widened west of Wonderland. Oxford attracted more traffic, and traffic dropped off on Riverside.

[vid]

You widen your roads?

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by vid

You widen your roads?

Rarely. But it does happen.

[vid]

What is it like?

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

D'ohdy, you really don't have a clue. I spent 20 years hoofing it on the bus, so I don't need any lecturing from you. Do you have children? If you don't, then butt the fark out, because you just don't get it. The small mind in the room is you.

If you have to drive than that is fine. Improving transit does not mean that every single resident has to take it to work.

That being said your comments make me wonder how our parents and generations of parents were able to raise their kids on one car families and taking their kids on buses and trains, etc.

With a good transit system, and destinations located at proper transit centres, than it would be just as easy to take kids on transit.

If your trips can't be done well on transit now, that has to do with poor transit service in some cases poor planning for not putting needed services in a more centralized community area of your neighbourhood, etc.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

If you have to drive than that is fine. Improving transit does not mean that every single resident has to take it to work.

That being said your comments make me wonder how our parents and generations of parents were able to raise their kids on one car families and taking their kids on buses and trains, etc.

With a good transit system, and destinations located at proper transit centres, than it would be just as easy to take kids on transit.

If your trips can't be done well on transit now, that has to do with poor transit service in some cases poor planning for not putting needed services in a more centralized community area of your neighbourhood, etc.

A huge difference in previous generations was that many families only had one parent working. Although I'm only 25 and grew up in the 90s, I was raised in such a family - one car, one parent working and one at home.

[bolognium]

Originally Posted by Wharn

You're forgetting that Vancouver also benefits from a more temperate climate than London. Transit could be emphasized, yes, but frankly it's a nightmare to be a cyclist in this city during the winter. It gets to the point where there is nowhere left to put the snow. There's snow everywhere. The bike lanes disappear. The sidewalks are swallowed. Even some arterial lanes are lost to snowbanks. The snow may melt during the day and then freeze at night, making these ice ruts that are impossible to navigate. And on top of that there is the cold and the wind. There is NO WAY people are going to give up the comfort of their cars (or even the bus) for that commute year-round. Maybe for summer, and maybe for a small, select group.

This is, by the way, coming from someone who commutes by bike April through October. After that its my beloved LW200

You nailed it. Anyone who thinks that biking is the answer to this city's transportation problems is a complete nut. I too bike pretty much everywhere once the decent weather hits, but biking during the winter is almost a death sentence.

I agree London needs to focus on more than just its ring-road, but to dismiss it completely without actually living here is pretty silly.

[Cambridgite]

Originally Posted by vid

What is it like?

Wider.....

[vid]

I hope someday my city can experience this "road widening" phenomenon you speak of.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

This coming from the guy who thinks immigrants should be restricted from Toronto.



two many?

I was joking about restricting immigrants and 905ers from downtown Toronto. I thought that was obvious in the context of that thread. You are the one who doesn't have a clue. My parents are immigrants from Vietnam, and I live in Mississauga.

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

D'ohdy, you really don't have a clue. I spent 20 years hoofing it on the bus, so I don't need any lecturing from you. Do you have children? If you don't, then butt the fark out, because you just don't get it. The small mind in the room is you.

That's your response to my arguments? Pathetic.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by vid

You have to concede that there are some people who can't practically use transit or bikes on a regular basis. It can be done, but is it practical?

The real question is: is increasing road capacity practical? Is London willing to demolish neighbourhoods to build freeways?

It seems to me that increasing transit capacity is more practical, without being a detriment to driving (and of course taking cars off the road helps driving as well). On the other hand, buildings freeways and widening roads are a detriment to pedestrians and transit riders.

Originally Posted by bolognium

You nailed it. Anyone who thinks that biking is the answer to this city's transportation problems is a complete nut. I too bike pretty much everywhere once the decent weather hits, but biking during the winter is almost a death sentence.

I guess that explains the lack of cyclists in Montreal.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Doady

The real question is: is increasing road capacity practical? Is London willing to demolish neighbourhoods to build freeways?

It seems to me that increasing transit capacity is more practical, without being a detriment to driving (and of course taking cars off the road helps driving as well). On the other hand, buildings freeways and widening roads are a detriment to pedestrians and transit riders.

I'm not thinking about private cars, I am thinking about commerce and freight.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by bolognium

You nailed it. Anyone who thinks that biking is the answer to this city's transportation problems is a complete nut. I too bike pretty much everywhere once the decent weather hits, but biking during the winter is almost a death sentence.

I agree London needs to focus on more than just its ring-road, but to dismiss it completely without actually living here is pretty silly.

It was nice and warm today in The Forest City, so I decided to commute with my bike and leave the car at home. Little did I know, my favourite path (along the East bank of the Thames between University Drive and Richmond south of Windermere) was completely blocked by deep, heavy snow. Ended up walking the bike and looking like an idiot while I tried to find an escape route to the street, which still had puddles and ice everywhere. Biking in the snow... NEVER AGAIN.

Originally Posted by Doady

The real question is: is increasing road capacity practical? Is London willing to demolish neighbourhoods to build freeways?

That depends. If they want to demolish parts of downtown to build the Thames River Parkway, I'd say no. Likewise I don't think it would be a good idea to go around demolishing houses in the old south to build a downtown connector. But suppose it was another street that was due for freeway conversion. For example: Highbury Avenue. It looks like a sack of shit and it is a sack of shit; I would not shed one tear if they ploughed a 4-lane expressway through from the Thames River right up to Sunningdale Road.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Originally Posted by Wharn

Highbury Avenue. It looks like a sack of shit and it is a sack of shit; I would not shed one tear if they ploughed a 4-lane expressway through from the Thames River right up to Sunningdale Road.

A sentiment that's soo true! Highbury really is a pathetic road, with nothing of great value near it.

If the city had been smart (for a change ) they would have made it the freeway it was intended to be, connecting to the 402. Hell even 5 years ago before they decided to twin VMP, it would have been worthwhile to explore upgrading Highbury to a freeway! It's actually in the city, would be used by commuters and have a practical everyday use! Instead were stuck with VMP at the extreme east, that's not a freeway and won't be one for another 62 years according to London's plans.

The only hope now is that London annexes Arva to the North and declares a northern corridor for a future freeway. Even still It seems to have little use to commuters in London.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Doady

I was joking about restricting immigrants and 905ers from downtown Toronto. I thought that was obvious in the context of that thread. You are the one who doesn't have a clue. My parents are immigrants from Vietnam, and I live in Mississauga.



That's your response to my arguments? Pathetic.

That's your response to my comments? Pathetic.

I fail to see what was funny in your post.



I don't care where your parents are from. My mother is an immigrant; both my wife's parents are immigrants. Save for First Nations' peoples, we are all immigrants or the offspring thereof. So join the club...but then, you really don't want to. I recall very clearly your disdain for our country, and your expressed wish that Canada would lose against the USA in the Hockey Gold Medal event at the Olympics.

Your suggestion that biking is a viable commuting option is utterly ridiculous. 4 months of the year, we have snowbanks far, far bigger than anything in the MissingSausage. Have you been here in the winter? We are in the Snowbelt.

As I mentioned, I spent 20 years almost exclusively taking transit (Vancouver and Montreal), so I don't appreciate the lectures. In the summer, I often rollerblade to work (would do it everyday, except that I have my children to drop off at school).

[Doady]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

That's your response to my comments? Pathetic.

I fail to see what was funny in your post.

It wasn't supposed to be funny. I was criticising MikeToronto's thread, which I would have thought was obvious. I guess it was already obvious to everyone but you, considering the lack of response to it.

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I don't care where your parents are from. My mother is an immigrant; both my wife's parents are immigrants. Save for First Nations' peoples, we are all immigrants or the offspring thereof.

Whatever. If you want to believe I hate immigrants, it's up to you.

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

So join the club...but then, you really don't want to. I recall very clearly your disdain for our country, and your expressed wish that Canada would lose against the USA in the Hockey Gold Medal event at the Olympics.

I love Canada, but I hate nationalism and patriotism, or anything else that suggests that anyone who doesn't root for a certain hockey team is not a true Canadian.

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Your suggestion that biking is a viable commuting option is utterly ridiculous. 4 months of the year, we have snowbanks far, far bigger than anything in the MissingSausage. Have you been here in the winter? We are in the Snowbelt.

You do realize that there are 12 months in the year, right? I personally only ride my bike in spring and fall (and cooler summer days).

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

As I mentioned, I spent 20 years almost exclusively taking transit (Vancouver and Montreal), so I don't appreciate the lectures. In the summer, I often rollerblade to work (would do it everyday, except that I have my children to drop off at school).

I don't understand why you keep bring up your children (or even your objection to my original post). First of all, your children is purely an anecdotal thing, the same thing you keep criticizing MikeToronto about. You think the transportation system should designed around parents who have to drive their kids to school? If these sort of trips dominate London, than it is an even shittier place than Mississauga, which is already pretty shitty enough as is.

Not that I even suggested that roads should be reduced of anything of the sort in the first place. I make a post about transit/biking vs a ring road around London and somehow that inspires you go on an angry rant about having to drop your kids off at school. I don't get it.

I'm just not really sure how an expressway circulating London relates to driving your kids to school. Or how it makes me anti-car to suggest that having more transit and biking within London would relieve more congestion in London - which benefits drivers as well - more than building highways through farmlands around outside of it.

You just completely overreacted to my post and ignored or misread every single point I made and that others here have made. For some reason, you keep bringing up the fact about being a former transit user and now a rollerblader too even though I never once criticized yours or anyone else's commuting habits in this thread. Never once have I said that you or anyone else is a bad person if you are driver. I never made any personal attack on any aspect of anyone's lifestyle here yet you take it so personally and somehow felt a need to defend your need to drive so aggressively. And really, considering that I live in Mississauga, suggesting that I am an anti-car zealot is just really dumb.