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  #261  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 2:52 AM
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Originally Posted by urbanlife View Post
But for now, I am just curious how much stupider it will get.
Ah, so you've seen the inscription at Delphi: "Know thyself." Seriously, it's one thing to use knowledge to help others refine their ideas, and another to just be a pretentious ass wrapped up in orthodoxy (not that I'm accusing anyone of that - I just think it's worth remembering). I sincerely don't blame anyone for being dismissive of ideas that aren't supported by example - authority is how people without imagination conceive of the world around them, and it's a reasonably effective way to do things when the subject is something other than a globally relevant landmark and memorial.
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  #262  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 3:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
Ah, so you've seen the inscription at Delphi: "Know thyself." Seriously, it's one thing to use knowledge to help others refine their ideas, and another to just be a pretentious ass wrapped up in orthodoxy (not that I'm accusing anyone of that - I just think it's worth remembering). I sincerely don't blame anyone for being dismissive of ideas that aren't supported by example - authority is how people without imagination conceive of the world around them, and it's a reasonably effective way to do things when the subject is something other than a globally relevant landmark and memorial.
Well if that is the case, then why bother using such a boring tower as the Freedom Tower? Why not use any other tower that has been built or proposed over the years? It seems like a waste of fantasy imagination to use a boring tower when trying to talk about imagination...if you are seriously trying to upstage my comments, then I suggest you imagine harder cause these ideas are just boring.
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  #263  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 3:28 AM
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Well if that is the case, then why bother using such a boring tower as the Freedom Tower?
I wouldn't, if this were a real proposal. But the scaled-up, non-tapering, twinned Freedom Tower is adequate to illustrate the principles of my idea: (1) Confident, formal simplicity - exactly the thing that gave the original Twin Towers grandeur. (2) An encouragement to the rest of the city to move upward, rather than trying to "complete" the downtown skyline and abort further creativity. (3) The recreation of the sense of these buildings as pillars of the sky, like part of a colonnade, rather than a gaggle of individuals. And, of course, it would provide ample space for my interior ideas, and given the square floor plates, facilitate my "four corners" idea for the observation deck.

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Why not use any other tower that has been built or proposed over the years?
This one was handy and adequate to the purposes of the idea. The fact is I'm not discontent with the project as it's really occurring - I stated as much when posting my idea for an alternative. Imagination isn't about getting as far as possible from reality as you can - that's what art-show con artists do who want to make money selling meaningless crap to other phonies. It's about harnessing the spirit of a real thing and embodying it in a way that is most potent and productive of ongoing elaboration.

The American spirit at its best is simple, bold, and childlike without being child-ish, and I'd be happy to entertain any designs you have in mind that would work better for my idea and exhibit these qualities more clearly than the Freedom Tower. It takes a sincere understanding of the best qualities of the American character to appreciate what belongs in place of the lost towers. A lot of people who are just entirely art-minded, entirely economics-minded, or entirely civic-minded can't understand that - they want meaningless amorphous blobs, or some gaggle of 1000-ft condo towers to meet market demand at minimum cost, or just a park with no buildings, etc. We lost the towers because they were American, and in my view that makes them something more than a scrap of real estate in New York. It would be one thing if the people of the city were dead-set against anything like this, but every poll I'd ever seen on the question showed most people just wanted the original towers back, so a project that had the same qualities at even greater scale would, I think, have gotten support, both within the city and nationwide.

The real project will do - it's shaping up nicely - but people with imagination will never stop wondering how much more was possible, and by extension, how great the possibilities remain wherever an opportunity arises to build something new. Nothing says the WTC has to be the absolute, final anchor of Lower Manhattan, so really when someone belittles these ideas for alternative WTCs, they're just admitting they don't have the imagination to realize that the ideas could be applied elsewhere in Lower Manhattan, elsewhere on the island of Manhattan, elsewhere in New York City, elsewhere in the United States, or elsewhere in the world.

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Originally Posted by urbanlife View Post
It seems like a waste of fantasy imagination to use a boring tower when trying to talk about imagination...if you are seriously trying to upstage my comments, then I suggest you imagine harder cause these ideas are just boring.
Everything can be deeper than it is - infinitely deeper. Is it that you think the quality of Simple Grandeur I describe is boring, or do you think there are more interesting incarnations of that principle?
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Last edited by Troubadour; May 30, 2011 at 3:49 AM.
     
     
  #264  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 3:38 AM
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The Freedom Tower is a big glass office building...nothing to really write home about. There really isn't anything spectacular or inspiring about the tower besides its location. I just see a few people on this forum desperately grasping at the idea of having it be twin towers again, when the more important factor is how should this super block best be reconnected to the rest of downtown again and reverse some of the damage that they have caused.
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  #265  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 4:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
Notice how the people who are belittling my or other people's ideas are mainly focused on their scale, all the while insisting that it's the proponents who are the ones obsessed with up-sizing? I had specific ideas about the memorial, about trees, about having an open space in the upper floors with a big garden, about an observation deck displaying gifts from the "four corners of the Earth" at its four corners, etc. etc. - but none of that got mentioned, it's all just "Yer a crazy height-monkey." Methinks these folks doth protest too much, when all they can talk about is how impractical the size of an idea is. Once you've said your piece about the size and points ancillary to it, why don't you try moving on to other facets of the conversation? And if you think this whole thread is pointless, why are you commenting in it? Seriously, get an imagination. Learn to have ideas that aren't force-fed to you by some textbook, pretentious art critic, or rich degenerate who owns a development company.
Maybe some of us like to discuss buildings and their logic, and don't care to discuss the rest. If I recall this is a skyscraper web page...forgot the name... Fantasy can be fun, but when the discussion turns to what someone calls "reality" and they're wrong, and refuse to grasp that, then, well, this is a debate forum and debates will happen.

Your last sentence is extremely presumptuous, and I think insulting. Only the great troubadour and your ilk have ideas? Further, you put philosophy and dreaming on a pedestal, but fail to see that others do them too, and apparently don't grasp that others also involve logic and possibly expertise in their musings as well.
     
     
  #266  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 4:31 AM
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Originally Posted by urbanlife View Post
The Freedom Tower is a big glass office building...nothing to really write home about.
It's an office building because people are going to put offices in it. And yeah, it's clad in glass - which is responsible for the many spectacular reflections we've seen in the construction thread. I can imagine a pretty long list of alternatives - different materials, combinations of materials, colors, surface textures, etc. etc. - but the permutations of that process are endless, and I already had an example of my core principles available. Resizing and Copy+Pasting the Freedom Tower from its non-tapering angle was adequate, and the result was a cityscape I would love to see, and a couple of buildings I would love to experience from any angle externally or height internally.

I wish I had the artistic skill to show my ideas for the interior, the memorial, the Garden of Hope, and the observation deck, but I don't - all I could do was describe it verbally and hope the people reading what I wrote had imagination enough to see it in their minds.

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There really isn't anything spectacular or inspiring about the tower besides its location.
I'm perfectly open to suggestions. What other design, as you envision it or as you've seen in other proposals, would work best within the context of my idea and the motivating principle behind it: Simple grandeur, doubled, at the roof height of Burj Khalifa, surrounded by a forest at the base, a large obsevation deck on the roof, and having large internal open spaces near the top containing the memorial and the Garden of Hope, in ascending order.

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Originally Posted by urbanlife View Post
I just see a few people on this forum desperately grasping at the idea of having it be twin towers again, when the more important factor is how should this super block best be reconnected to the rest of downtown again and reverse some of the damage that they have caused.
What does that even mean? "Reconnect with the rest of downtown"? Are you talking about streets, sidewalks, replacing the trees with retail storefronts...? Maybe it's not the point to reconnect with the rest of downtown, because maybe this block is a special area of the city with its own needs and values, like Central Park.
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  #267  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 9:42 AM
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this is actually an awesome idea. only i'd like to take your idea a bit further...

tear down most of lower manhattan and build 911 replicas of the old WTC towers in its place, each one 2,001 feet tall. i think that achieves the 3 most important aspects of the new WTC: it honors the fallen WTC and 9/11 and america (the one in the center has a 1,776 foot tall spire), it's symbolic of freedom, and it shows the terrorists that they don't win, WE DO.

also, all the towers have, of course, an inter-connected observation deck with attractions and museums and galleries and a haunted house and indoor skiing and a public pool and a go-cart track and three petting zoos, a gift shop and an IMAX.

does anyone have a computer program to make a rendering so that we can prove that this is feasible and can be built?
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  #268  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
this is actually an awesome idea. only i'd like to take your idea a bit further...

tear down most of lower manhattan and build 911 replicas of the old WTC towers in its place, each one 2,001 feet tall. i think that achieves the 3 most important aspects of the new WTC: it honors the fallen WTC and 9/11 and america (the one in the center has a 1,776 foot tall spire), it's symbolic of freedom, and it shows the terrorists that they don't win, WE DO.

also, all the towers have, of course, an inter-contected observation deck with attractions and museums and galleries and a haunted house and indoor skiing and a public pool and a go-cart track and three petting zoos, a gift shop and an IMAX.

does anyone have a computer program to make a rendering so that we can prove that this is feasible and can be built?
lol omg, what are those popsicles actually for?
     
     
  #269  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 11:27 AM
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Really? Really?

There's nothing 'real' about this, just a napkin sketch by someone who obviously knows nothing about architecture, urban design, engineering, building, logistics, infrastructure or just basic tact.

If I (or any other competent forumer) spent more than 10 seconds looking at this we could probably list 10 reasons (I've got at least 3-4 without putting any thought into it) why this would or could never happen. But you're so insistent that because we don't have specific technical knowledge available ONLY to those who are actually building and designing the site that somehow your 'designs' are valid.

Quite honestly it's insulting. To those of us on the forum who work in the industry and to the design/engineering/construction/management professionals who have put this project together.

Put frankly, knock this sh*t off and go put your time to good use (like taking a building systems or urban design class).

/end rant
Insulting? How can it be insulting if I didn't say a single insult in this thread? How can simply posting an idea be insulting?

Also, you mentioned about 3 or 4 reasons why it would be impossible, what are these reasons?
     
     
  #270  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 11:32 AM
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This thread legitimately made me lol....most epic thread on SSP.
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  #271  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
It's an office building because people are going to put offices in it. And yeah, it's clad in glass - which is responsible for the many spectacular reflections we've seen in the construction thread. I can imagine a pretty long list of alternatives - different materials, combinations of materials, colors, surface textures, etc. etc. - but the permutations of that process are endless, and I already had an example of my core principles available. Resizing and Copy+Pasting the Freedom Tower from its non-tapering angle was adequate, and the result was a cityscape I would love to see, and a couple of buildings I would love to experience from any angle externally or height internally.

I wish I had the artistic skill to show my ideas for the interior, the memorial, the Garden of Hope, and the observation deck, but I don't - all I could do was describe it verbally and hope the people reading what I wrote had imagination enough to see it in their minds.



I'm perfectly open to suggestions. What other design, as you envision it or as you've seen in other proposals, would work best within the context of my idea and the motivating principle behind it: Simple grandeur, doubled, at the roof height of Burj Khalifa, surrounded by a forest at the base, a large obsevation deck on the roof, and having large internal open spaces near the top containing the memorial and the Garden of Hope, in ascending order.



What does that even mean? "Reconnect with the rest of downtown"? Are you talking about streets, sidewalks, replacing the trees with retail storefronts...? Maybe it's not the point to reconnect with the rest of downtown, because maybe this block is a special area of the city with its own needs and values, like Central Park.
I am guessing there is an age and education difference between us...which it is nice you are trying to imagine more that could be there without context of what is there and what is wanted by people who live there, but year in and year out I remember seeing people just like you come into an architecture program in college with the same mindset and drop out before finishing the first year...there is always a difference between admiring architecture and being able to design architecture in the same manner that their is a difference between liking music and knowing how to play music.
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  #272  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 12:55 PM
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i lYk 2 sK8
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Last edited by Tom Servo; May 30, 2011 at 1:11 PM.
     
     
  #273  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 1:04 PM
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Your a genious! That pays even more respect to what America really wants. Why doesn't anyone else have this kind of ambition really?

I ran with your ideas and decided to make two Freedom Towers that are each 28,000' tall (that way they are visible from the entire country!). The existing structure can be used but multiplied by a factor of give or take 13,000. At this scale the building become superprofitable as it now has about 4,000 square miles of leaseable space. Fuck it, there are fucking farms and hospitals and shit in these towers! Most importantly though this can be built to accomodate the existing plans.



Here is a plan:


This is the true vision of freedom and liberty that America deserves.
wow... you know. this got me thinking: would it be possible to simply extrude the entire shape of manhattan island up many thousands of feet to make a 2,001 floor skyscraper? all the other buildings could exist in the subterranean levels of the building and the foundashun could go around the perimeter of the island in the water so all the subways and underground pipes and electrical wires wouldn't need to be moved. i saw on futurama, NYC in the future has a lot of buildings that look like thousands of feet, so it's probably possible... does someone who noes more about the physics of skyscrapers tell me if that's possible?

and please don't just say NO. i need specific reasons why this wouldn't be possible.
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  #274  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 5:38 PM
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Clearly some folks were not satisfied with my original 0.5' Eunuch Tower proposal - I guess it was just too bold, ambitious, and uneconomical for them. Well, I hear you, and I'd like to address your concerns with an even better idea: I present Eunuch Tower Ultra - approximately 0.1 millimeters tall. The only security precaution that would be necessary would be having visitors wear dust masks so they don't inhale it.


Eunuch Tower Ultra by troubadour1, on Flickr

Clearly my idea to have the rest of the site turned into surface parking lots was not good enough, so I'm going to expand the scope and propose that the whole of Manhattan be leveled and turned into a single, continuous surface parking lot serving the other four boroughs. There were also some very insightful objections raised about the spacing between parking spaces, so I'm going to modify the proposal so that each parking space has at least 1 square mile surrounding it to give adequate room for turning.

In addition, I've come to the conclusion that my idea for a cost-effective memorial was still too expensive: A McDonald's in Pocatello, Idaho is not the cheapest possible location. Rather, I'm thinking the memorial should be entirely electronic, and be created from an HTML template hosted on a free server. If that proves too expensive, it can revert to pure ASCII text, or even use the abbreviations used in text messages. "Bad sht hppnd 9/11/01" seems like an economical memorial, don't you think?

Hmm, then again, if it's on the internet it will still have operating expenses related to the use of electrons. Perhaps the above phrase can instead be etched in microdots on to an aluminum shaving from a machine shop in Paraguay, and then the shaving would be buried at sea (i.e., flushed down a toilet) in a solemn ceremony with Kenny Loggins music playing in the background as the most economical soundtrack. Nine out of ten architecture professionals support this proposal.
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  #275  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 8:09 PM
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He's making fun of you, you gigantic idiot.
hmmm, ever think that maybe he's being sarcastic?

Look who's the giant idiot now.
     
     
  #276  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 8:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Servo
wow... you know. this got me thinking: would it be possible to simply extrude the entire shape of manhattan island up many thousands of feet to make a 2,001 floor skyscraper? all the other buildings could exist in the subterranean levels of the building and the foundashun could go around the perimeter of the island in the water so all the subways and underground pipes and electrical wires wouldn't need to be moved. i saw on futurama, NYC in the future has a lot of buildings that look like thousands of feet, so it's probably possible... does someone who noes more about the physics of skyscrapers tell me if that's possible?

and please don't just say NO. i need specific reasons why this wouldn't be possible.
You know, building on your idea...I say we basically make Manhattan like a giant fish tank (that way we can leave the existing buildings). 21,000ft tall glass walls at the perimeter of the island (since cost is no issue they are just embedded in bedrock and have no other visible means of support). On top of the fishtank is a giant golf course (it just freespans, no supports). And the 911th hole? Right on top of where the Freedom Tower is being built. And the flag at the 911th hole is set on a 20,000ft spire, just to make sure that the terrorists know we've won.

Here's my 10 minute sketch-up job. I'm sure it can be done and I challenge any of you to tell me why it's technically not possible.

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  #277  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 8:53 PM
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it would be great to swim right beside the empire state building! oh, and even if it isn't filled with water, it would get rid of those pesky winters that New York has, and even all that annoying rain that is key to the survival all the trees in the memorial! luckly, the sun would be blocked out for most of the day too! no more painful sunburns! i hope you don't mind if i go skydiving off the edge of it do you?


(btw, funniest thread i have read!)
     
     
  #278  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 9:12 PM
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This won't happen not because it's too crazy and outlandish, but because it would be completely unworkable from the retailer's perspective, by a factor of 100.
What are you basing that on? Businesses in cities all over the world operate out of tiny little box-stalls in crappy, inaccessible alleys and bazaars, because the people who live there frequent them. Terrible, boring, low-diversity shopping centers in suburbs do plenty of business because people live there. The business case for something like this is a lot sounder than what most real businesses actually have.

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Not to mention lil ol issues concerning stuff like secure entries for apartments
Wow, that is a whole new level of non sequitur. You're pulling this issue out of thin air - there is nothing inherent in the concept that suggests any problem of the sort. The fact that I haven't specified internal security measures somehow means they aren't there, or would be inadequate? You know, I haven't specified the plumbing architecture either, so are you now going to insist that my idea would give people lead poisoning and create septic explosions? In fact, come to think of it, since I haven't given you blueprints for the elevator shafts, I guess that means there are none, or that they would be death traps where dozens of people would plunge to their deaths every week. Your complaints are a far bigger joke than anyone could reasonably consider my idea to be.

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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
lack of access to outside air for the retail
Which might be a problem (with a trivial solution) if that were a real requirement, and not something you're just making up. All over the world, shops do business in dirty, crowded markets with polluted, hot, humid air, but your objection to retail inside a skyscraper is that the air would be climate controlled? What suburban NIMBY utopia with a perfect natural climate are you using as your model for the basic requirements of retail? These are some of the dumbest objections yet.

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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
the need for duplicate elevators and stairs...
You're only labeling them "duplicate" because they share an exterior, which is totally irrelevant to their economics. If they were in totally separate towers, they would cost more.

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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Of course you know that residential floor-to-floor heights are generally around 10', while offices and retail bottom out around 12'5" or 13'.
I'm glad you're so conversant in value engineering, but this isn't a suburban GAP outlet or apartment complex in Greater Boise. People would choose to live there because it would be designed to be awesome, and businesses would follow the people - that's all there is to it. Maybe you could stand outside with a sandwich board warning people not to live there because the ceilings are more than 10', and telling businesses to reject money tainted by architectural heresy.

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(Hey, let's put a store way up in the sky, in a windowless cave
Now you're channeling straight-up NIMBYism. The difference between a shadowy urban canyon with a tiny sliver of visible sky and the inside of a building is that the internal space is often better-lit and has fresher air.

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all in a location only convenient to people already one the same few floors...)
Your objections have transcended non sequitur and entered the realm of space-time-continuum-ripping paradox. At the same time you insist the whole thing is unworkable because it doesn't subscribe to suburban value engineering principles, you then object on a basis that would rule out 90% of suburban shopping malls, and pretty much every business in the world that isn't a luxury boutique - the fact that people only go there because it's closer than something else.

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All completely absurd to anyone who knows anything about this stuff.
This indignant, pompous huffing belongs in a Disney cartoon movie, not a discussion about skyscrapers. "If Man were meant to fly, he'd have been born with wings! Everyone knows that! Harumph harumph!" You've invented objections that collectively rule out the majority of actual built environments throughout the world, and act as though you're stating common sense. It's beyond farce. It's sad.
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  #279  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
What are you basing that on? Businesses in cities all over the world operate out of tiny little box-stalls in crappy, inaccessible alleys and bazaars, because the people who live there frequent them. Terrible, boring, low-diversity shopping centers in suburbs do plenty of business because people live there. The business case for something like this is a lot sounder than what most real businesses actually have.



Wow, that is a whole new level of non sequitur. You're pulling this issue out of thin air - there is nothing inherent in the concept that suggests any problem of the sort. The fact that I haven't specified internal security measures somehow means they aren't there, or would be inadequate? You know, I haven't specified the plumbing architecture either, so are you now going to insist that my idea would give people lead poisoning and create septic explosions? In fact, come to think of it, since I haven't given you blueprints for the elevator shafts, I guess that means there are none, or that they would be death traps where dozens of people would plunge to their deaths every week. Your complaints are a far bigger joke than anyone could reasonably consider my idea to be.



Which might be a problem (with a trivial solution) if that were a real requirement, and not something you're just making up. All over the world, shops do business in dirty, crowded markets with polluted, hot, humid air, but your objection to retail inside a skyscraper is that the air would be climate controlled? What suburban NIMBY utopia with a perfect natural climate are you using as your model for the basic requirements of retail? These are some of the dumbest objections yet.



You're only labeling them "duplicate" because they share an exterior, which is totally irrelevant to their economics. If they were in totally separate towers, they would cost more.



I'm glad you're so conversant in value engineering, but this isn't a suburban GAP outlet or apartment complex in Greater Boise. People would choose to live there because it would be designed to be awesome, and businesses would follow the people - that's all there is to it. Maybe you could stand outside with a sandwich board warning people not to live there because the ceilings are more than 10', and telling businesses to reject money tainted by architectural heresy.



Now you're channeling straight-up NIMBYism. The difference between a shadowy urban canyon with a tiny sliver of visible sky and the inside of a building is that the internal space is often better-lit and has fresher air.



Your objections have transcended non sequitur and entered the realm of space-time-continuum-ripping paradox. At the same time you insist the whole thing is unworkable because it doesn't subscribe to suburban value engineering principles, you then object on a basis that would rule out 90% of suburban shopping malls, and pretty much every business in the world that isn't a luxury boutique - the fact that people only go there because it's closer than something else.



This indignant, pompous huffing belongs in a Disney cartoon movie, not a discussion about skyscrapers. "If Man were meant to fly, he'd have been born with wings! Everyone knows that! Harumph harumph!" You've invented objections that collectively rule out the majority of actual built environments throughout the world, and act as though you're stating common sense. It's beyond farce. It's sad.
Your comments cease to amaze me, I am glad you at least believe the garbage you are saying cause it sounds like someone has to.
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Old Posted May 30, 2011, 9:44 PM
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Originally Posted by plinko View Post
Here's my 10 minute sketch-up job. I'm sure it can be done and I challenge any of you to tell me why it's technically not possible.

Any golf course (of any size) over 4.2 feet higher than sea level would be technologically impossible, contrary to the laws of physics, economically impracticable, and a sin against God worthy of burning at the stake. So I'll suggest yet a third possibility: Stop all construction on all the towers immediately, sell the equipment, and use the proceeds to invest in pork bellies and email-based loans to Nigerian royalty. It's economical, practical, and would completely avoid the vile stench of artistic inspiration or human ambition.
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