HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     
Welcome to the SkyscraperPage Forum

Since 1999, the SkyscraperPage Forum has been one of the most active skyscraper enthusiast communities on the web. The global membership discusses development news and construction activity on projects from around the world, alongside discussions on urban design, architecture, transportation and many other topics. Welcome!

You are currently browsing as a guest. Register with the SkyscraperPage Forum and join this growing community of skyscraper enthusiasts. Registering has benefits such as fewer ads, the ability to post messages, private messaging and more.

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > SSP: Local Ottawa-Gatineau > Urban, Urban Design & Heritage Issues

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2011, 1:15 PM
Ottawan Ottawan is offline
Citizen-at-large
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Expat (in Toronto)
Posts: 737
Downtown Sidestreet Retail

There's an interesting article by Eric Darwin at Spacing Ottawa on this subject:

http://spacingottawa.ca/2011/09/08/h...from-the-city/

Both the article and the comments are worth reading, and the topic may be an interesting one for some discussion here as well. I like the way that Darwin does not flinch at taking on some sacred cows: namely, criticising Charlesfort. While I generally like Charlesfort projects, Darwin raises an interesting point about their ground-level interaction.

Where I think the article is dead wrong is about the Mondrian, which is extremely lively at grade (at least along Bank, and even if it is because of a Shoppers).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2011, 3:52 PM
adam-machiavelli adam-machiavelli is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 860
I think the reason Mondrian was mentioned was more so that it was an example of the vertical equivalent of locating parking in front of buildings.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2011, 7:47 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by adam-machiavelli View Post
I think the reason Mondrian was mentioned was more so that it was an example of the vertical equivalent of locating parking in front of buildings.
But it's carried off quite well. I've had to talk people into believing that's a parking garage above the Shoppers Ubiquity Mart.

Speaking of Shoppers, why is it some locations seem to be immune from those god-awful "lifestyle posters" that plague others, most conspicuously the friggin' Rideau Centre?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2011, 9:47 PM
m0nkyman's Avatar
m0nkyman m0nkyman is offline
Candidate Somerset Ward14
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,896
I'm not going to blame Charlesfort or other developers, when the city and the local councillor actively oppose having ground floor retail on streets not deemed to be a mainstreet.
Quote:
The councilor for Somerset ward frequently opposes commercial use on the ground floor of condo buildings
and the zoning bylaw for residential areas also limits retail: http://ottawa.ca/residents/bylaw/a_z...dex_en-05.html
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2011, 11:04 PM
gjhall's Avatar
gjhall gjhall is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
But it's carried off quite well. I've had to talk people into believing that's a parking garage above the Shoppers Ubiquity Mart.

Speaking of Shoppers, why is it some locations seem to be immune from those god-awful "lifestyle posters" that plague others, most conspicuously the friggin' Rideau Centre?
I know for the new Rideau Street one it was made a condition of site plan that they not have them. So if ever you see a Shopper's going in, call the councillor to have them require they be not allowed.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2011, 12:04 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by m0nkyman View Post
I'm not going to blame Charlesfort or other developers, when the city and the local councillor actively oppose having ground floor retail on streets not deemed to be a mainstreet.


and the zoning bylaw for residential areas also limits retail: http://ottawa.ca/residents/bylaw/a_z...dex_en-05.html
Our zoning bylaw is crap, and that councillor is crap. That's why Ottawa ends up full of crap. Or fuller of crap.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2011, 7:58 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 235
While condo retail works well on "main streets" I'm not sure I would agree that retail on side streets adds much to downtown. You don't often get popular businesses that generate pedestrian traffic or serve local residents, but small niche businesses that invest little in the appearance of their stores, are hardly ever open and go bankrupt frequently, leaving an eyesore. There are a few exceptions. I think a restaurant or coffee shop facing Nepean would have done well at the Charlesfort building.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2011, 1:35 PM
Kitchissippi Kitchissippi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,021
Restaurants are going to have a harder time finding locations as condos go up, as the only eating establishments allowed under condos are ones that have minimal cooking like sushi or sub shops.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2011, 2:58 PM
gjhall's Avatar
gjhall gjhall is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
Restaurants are going to have a harder time finding locations as condos go up, as the only eating establishments allowed under condos are ones that have minimal cooking like sushi or sub shops.
What do you mean by this?

I can't help but think of Milestone's and Metropolitain in 700 Sussex, Clocktower in Westboro Station, the restaurant in the GCTC building, etc...

Is there a bylaw? Or do you mean that the condo boards won't allow them?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2011, 4:33 AM
Kitchissippi Kitchissippi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by gjhall View Post
What do you mean by this?

I can't help but think of Milestone's and Metropolitain in 700 Sussex, Clocktower in Westboro Station, the restaurant in the GCTC building, etc...

Is there a bylaw? Or do you mean that the condo boards won't allow them?

On the first two examples you cite, 700 Sussex and Westboro Station, the restaurants are in low-rise purpose-built structures adjoining the building. There's definitely a by-law that governs what can go under a mixed use building, and it's probably related to issues of ventilation and working with open flames.

Last edited by Kitchissippi; Sep 12, 2011 at 12:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2011, 4:52 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
While condo retail works well on "main streets" I'm not sure I would agree that retail on side streets adds much to downtown. You don't often get popular businesses that generate pedestrian traffic or serve local residents, but small niche businesses that invest little in the appearance of their stores, are hardly ever open and go bankrupt frequently, leaving an eyesore.
Economically, a city needs those. It needs spaces for businesses (and other organizations) to try. And fail. Or succeed, as the case may be.

If we fail to build (or even allow) such spaces, we are stifling future economic growth and diversity.

Centretown side streets, esp. between Kent and Bank, are littered with numerous small office and retail spaces, many of which have (or have had) stable, long-term existences.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2011, 1:25 PM
gjhall's Avatar
gjhall gjhall is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
On the first two examples you cite, 700 Sussex and Westboro Station, the restaurants are in low-rise purpose-built structures adjoining the building. There's definitely a by-law that governs what can go under a mixed use building, and it's probably related to issues of ventilation and working with open flames.
Utter madness. There are restaurants in hotels, which for any safety concern are exactly the same as residences.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2011, 2:33 PM
Kitchissippi Kitchissippi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by gjhall View Post
Utter madness. There are restaurants in hotels, which for any safety concern are exactly the same as residences.
Most hotels and commercial buildings don't have windows that open or balconies. They also have the ability to intervene with the building infrastructure to put in proper ventilation. I can see how retrofitting a generic commercial bay in a mixed-use condo would be a huge problem.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2011, 4:06 PM
gjhall's Avatar
gjhall gjhall is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
Most hotels and commercial buildings don't have windows that open or balconies. They also have the ability to intervene with the building infrastructure to put in proper ventilation. I can see how retrofitting a generic commercial bay in a mixed-use condo would be a huge problem.
So I took a closer look at this today, and while the bar/dining areas of Metropolitain and Milestone's are in the podium areas sticking out from the main building, the kitchens for both restaurants are in the main block, directly under residential units.

What by-law are you referring to?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2011, 4:55 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by gjhall View Post
So I took a closer look at this today, and while the bar/dining areas of Metropolitain and Milestone's are in the podium areas sticking out from the main building, the kitchens for both restaurants are in the main block, directly under residential units.
The kitchens are deep into the building. I'd like to know about this by-law, too.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2011, 5:28 PM
phil235's Avatar
phil235 phil235 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 812
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
The kitchens are deep into the building. I'd like to know about this by-law, too.
I'm not sure in those specific cases, but this may be referring to condo by-laws that prevent restaurants and certain commercial uses. Condo by-laws are passed by the condo corporation, which is composed of the condo residents. If the residents don't want a restaurant, which they often don't, they can pass a by-law restricting use.

I believe that was what happened in the condo on Bronson and Powell. The residents voted on allowing commercial use at street level and rejected it. I believe a gym went in instead, which leaves a blank wall on the main street. That is a real shame in the middle of a developing commercial strip. The City needs to insist on ground floor commercial on designated main streets.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2011, 5:44 PM
gjhall's Avatar
gjhall gjhall is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,030
Quote:
Originally Posted by phil235 View Post
I'm not sure in those specific cases, but this may be referring to condo by-laws that prevent restaurants and certain commercial uses. Condo by-laws are passed by the condo corporation, which is composed of the condo residents. If the residents don't want a restaurant, which they often don't, they can pass a by-law restricting use.

I believe that was what happened in the condo on Bronson and Powell. The residents voted on allowing commercial use at street level and rejected it. I believe a gym went in instead, which leaves a blank wall on the main street. That is a real shame in the middle of a developing commercial strip. The City needs to insist on ground floor commercial on designated main streets.
The best way to avoid this is to insist on two condominiums within the building be formed, one of the commercial space and one of the residential space, then either the developer can keep the commercial condo and manage it themselves or sell it to a commercial investor/management company, etc.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2011, 10:50 PM
Kitchissippi Kitchissippi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,021
Basically if you look at the General Mixed Use Zoning it permits restaurants, but then scroll down to subzones GM2 to GM4, it removes this permission and replaces it with what is allowed. I think most condos apply for this zoning
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2011, 12:12 AM
m0nkyman's Avatar
m0nkyman m0nkyman is offline
Candidate Somerset Ward14
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,896
Traditional MAinstreet zoning does what we want:
Quote:
   
(b)
where in a commercial or mixed use building and located on the ground floor abutting a street having direct pedestrian access to that street, residential, office and research and development centre uses must not be located within a depth of six metres of the front wall of the main building abutting the street ;
It's just that there aren't enough streets designated TM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
End
   
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > SSP: Local Ottawa-Gatineau > Urban, Urban Design & Heritage Issues
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:09 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.