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  #81  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 3:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisallard5454 View Post
I am not saying London doesn't have some things going for it. In terms of the Old East Village building it was more of a question than anything, as I have driven past it multiple times and wondered "why there". As I said, Richmond is its best aspect. I personally don't think the downtown is that fascinating. But then again why would it be? It is a city of 350 000. It has its perks and it is moving, but my point was just that for the amount of growth the city has, I would expect there to be more going on downtown.

I actually live right outside of London (Ingersoll) and have for the past 8 years so my opinion isn't of an ignorant bias, it is just that; an opinion. And I have seen every vantage point there is for the skyline, and you're right there are certain places where there are some pretty decent views (For Example heading North on Commisioner's just past Southdale).

Another thing that kills it for me, is Farhi. Why is his name on everything? It makes me feel like I am living in Dubai. It wouldn't bother me if I hadn't met him personally and known that he is really a rude, snobbish individual.


And on the earlier post on One London Place; Beautiful building. Horrible location. It doesn't fit in with the skyline at all in my opinion. It sticks out like a sore thumb. But than again I also think that the CN Tower punches out in an odd way, so take that with a grain of salt. I would, however take Portage and Main over One London Place any day.
That's cool, chris. I wasn't offended by your post or anything, guess I was just a little too abrupt with my reply. Since you're a local, you should definitely try popping by the London forum here more often. It'd be great to have another active member chiming in on topics. Also, as someone who lives in London's core and experiences it 24/7, it really isn't as dull and boring as people make it out to be. There's always something to do and a surprising amount of people are finally starting to call our downtown home.

----------------

Aight, just to try and prove my "mid-rises not affecting London's skyline" point, I leaned out the windows of my apartment and quickly snapped a few pictures. This is just what I can see from my apartment, obviously there are numerous mid-rises scattered throughout downtown. There's also half a dozen prominent churches and mid-rises lining Richmond Row that are obscured. Virtually none of the following buildings can be seen from outside of downtown. They are all within the 6-10 story range, but none of them can break the tree line. These are the types of buildings that make the Halifax skyline look so dense, and at the same time do absolutely nothing for London's skyline. See how good vantage points and sightlines can make a huge difference?

All three of these buildings can't be seen from outside downtown:


The large London Life complex on the left and the 12-story red brick apartment in the background can't be seen:


This 10-story 1940's art deco building isn't visible:


All five of these 10-story buildings (and church) can't be seen:


The 6-story bank in the centre of this image and the 6-story Market Tower on the left:


This ugly Stantec building can't be seen:


The top third of the 14-story RBC building on the right is visible, but the ugly white 9-story building can't be seen:


I made an exception for our Dominion Public building and ran out behind my apartment in a t-shirt. At 8-stories it isn't quite as impressive as Halifax' Dominion Public, but it's still one of London's most attractive buildings:


Again, I'm not trying to say anything negative about Halifax. You guys have a beautiful skyline and should absolutely be proud. It's just unfortunate for London that for us to get the same kind of recognition we have to go above and beyond what other cities have to.
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  #82  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 3:48 PM
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  #83  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 5:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flar
People also seem to forget that London is an old city. It has been in the top 10 largest cities in Canada since the 1850s. Having lived in London and explored Halifax thoroughly, they are comparable on historic architecture. I might even give the nod to London. Halifax is only marginally older and was quite small in the early 1800s.
The smallness argument isn't very compelling. Quebec City was also small prior to the 1850s (both Halifax and Quebec City were around 10,000 inhabitants in the very early 1800s -- Halifax hit 5,000 in 1784) and has many great old buildings. I personally find the older buildings in Halifax disproportionately interesting and many of them are landmarks. For example, Province House is from 1819, and Government House is from around 1800. The old Town Clock is from 1802 (and the other naval clock tower on the waterfront has a mechanism from the 1700s). St. Paul's is from 1750. Carlton House was built from the ruins of Louisbourg in 1759. The old ironstone and granite buildings like Morse's Teas are from prior to 1850. The Citadel is a crowning feature of the downtown area and has large masonry ramparts, buildings, moats, etc. built in 1850 or earlier. The Public Gardens are from the 1830s. The Keith's brewery building is from 1820, and the Keith's mansion is from the 1850s. Next door are 3 or 4 other mansions from 1800-1850. There's a block of cast iron buildings on Granville from the 1850s that seem to be pretty rare in Canada -- I'm not sure many other Canadian cities have that (most only have at best simple brick buildings from the 1850s-1870s). To me these are the most interesting features of Halifax and are what give it character.

Another subtle difference between older and newer cities is the street network. Halifax has much smaller, more pedestrian-friendly blocks. London has the large blocks and wide streets characteristic of newer cities in the Midwest.
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  #84  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 5:46 PM
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Originally Posted by goodthings View Post
There's this something that's a little uncomfortable:
Montreal
Maybe but i dont see it.
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  #85  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 5:50 PM
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I would say Edmonton and Mississauga are above average skyline for the population. I know Mississauga is tied into the GTA so it's harder to compare, but it has some major action for a suburb. Edmonton has a strong skyline for a city of a million, especially if you compare to other cities of a million people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodthings View Post
What did I miss?

Hyper Super Duper Extremely Way Too Much Legendary Beyond The Most Heavenly Overachievers Possible in the Entirety of the Universe:
- Vancouver, Toronto, Calgary

Overachievers:
- Halifax, Regina, Yellowknife, Niagara Falls

Just OK:
- Edmonton, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Hamilton, Moncton, Victoria (can build more and/or taller to overachieve)
- Burnaby, Mississauga (can clump buildings together to overachieve)

There's this something that's a little uncomfortable:
- St. John's, Saint John, St. Catharines, Saguenay, Montreal, Kelowna, London

Underwhelming:
- Fort McMurray, Thunder Bay, Windsor, Surrey, Laval, Longueuil, Barrie, Kingston, Fredericton, Red Deer, Prince George, Lethbridge, Quebec City, Trois-Rivieres
- Whitehorse (I understand though since the airport is above them)
- Ottawa (I understand since no building should be taller than the Peace Tower)

Desperately needs to AT LEAST create:
- Sudbury, Sault Ste. Marie, Kitchener-Waterloo, Guelph, Peterborough, Kamloops
- Vaughan (coming soon), Markham, and many more suburban cities and large towns.
- Brampton (come on, your population is approaching Mississauga's and yet you have none to show)
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  #86  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 6:03 PM
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For those who don't think One London Place doesn't fit in London, I think it's the saving grace for the skyline.

Without it not only would the 'line in the sky' be shorter, but it would be dominated by concrete buildings. OLP is a great counter to this because not only does it contrast the new with the old, but it punches out of the skyline giving the influence that the downtown is new and modern.

Without this important tower, I would say London would be lacking in the skyline category.
-There's now talk of adding a second tower (Two London Place), which, although good news for growth, may take away from the impact the building has on the city.

Edit: here's a link to the London Skyscraper Diagram with Two London Place. The tower is classified cancelled because it was canceled in the early 1990's but the foundation is done and the tower can go up at any time: http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?searchID=53276235
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  #87  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 6:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodthings View Post
What did I miss?

Hyper Super Duper Extremely Way Too Much Legendary Beyond The Most Heavenly Overachievers Possible in the Entirety of the Universe:
- Vancouver, Toronto, Calgary

Overachievers:
- Halifax, Regina, Yellowknife, Niagara Falls

Just OK:
- Edmonton, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Hamilton, Moncton, Victoria (can build more and/or taller to overachieve)
- Burnaby, Mississauga (can clump buildings together to overachieve)

There's this something that's a little uncomfortable:
- St. John's, Saint John, St. Catharines, Saguenay, Montreal, Kelowna, London

Underwhelming:
- Fort McMurray, Thunder Bay, Windsor, Surrey, Laval, Longueuil, Barrie, Kingston, Fredericton, Red Deer, Prince George, Lethbridge, Quebec City, Trois-Rivieres
- Whitehorse (I understand though since the airport is above them)
- Ottawa (I understand since no building should be taller than the Peace Tower)

Desperately needs to AT LEAST create:
- Sudbury, Sault Ste. Marie, Kitchener-Waterloo, Guelph, Peterborough, Kamloops
- Vaughan (coming soon), Markham, and many more suburban cities and large towns.
- Brampton (come on, your population is approaching Mississauga's and yet you have none to show)
You really think St Johns has a better skyline than Windsor? To me it looks like a stunted skyline in a city of maybe 100,000. Windsor's tallest is 113 m, you can't even get close to that in St Johns.
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  #88  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 6:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Vercingetorix View Post
I haven't seen that article about the jobs, but other indicators (bank reports for example) show that Calgary is still growing faster population wise, including significantly more in 2011. Banks can't give you the exact numbers but they can give surprisingly accurate estimates based on account movements and address changes.

Recent economic forecasts show Calgary to have similar or higher growth than Edmonton, so I would expect the population trend of the last 5 years to be the similar for the next five.

http://www.joconl.com/article/id43105
The really odd thing is Edmonton tends to be a few years behind Calgary when it comes to booming and behind Calgary when it comes to busting. The preliminary oil patch works starts up in Calgary and then it takes a year for that to translate to manufacturing in Edmonton, likewise when things cool down it takes a year or so for stuff to finish being built. This is clearly a departure form that trend, making it very interesting.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/busin...106/story.html

Quote:
EDMONTON - Edmonton led the country in job creation over the last 12 months, says the city’s chief economist.

But that expansion will heat up the local economy next year and may boost inflation and create labour shortages, John Rose said Thursday.

“The metropolitan area of Edmonton has generated more jobs than any other metropolitan area in the country — 44,900 jobs in the past 12 months,” Rose told an economics conference Thursday.

“These aren’t greeters at Walmart, this isn’t people giving each other yoga classes. These are jobs in manufacturing, jobs in construction, jobs in transportation, jobs in professional services. We’ve actually seen part-time employment in the city shrink, so in fact we’ve had probably around 50, 55,000 full-time jobs created, with a net gain of 44,900.”

Calgary, according to Statistics Canada data that Rose presented, added about 25,000 jobs in the period Rose discussed
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  #89  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 6:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Symz View Post
I've always felt Windsor's skyline could be more than what it is.

I was surprised and impressed with the size and density of Regina's skyline when I first saw it.

I was just wondering what Canadian city skylines of cities under 500,000 you guys thought weren't punching their weight with respects to how large in population they are?

And to add to that, which Canadian city skylines for cities under 500,000 do you think are quite impressive for their population?

I always thought Windsor had an impressive skyline, very impressive for a city of around 200,000.. To compare two cities, Windsor and St. John's, NL (I've lived in both places for numerous years) and they have similar population but no comparison in skylines. Windsors only looks small when you compare it to the neighbour across the river.

Kitchener, and Guelph have no skyline to speak of for their sizes.

I always feel like Edmonton is doing something wrong when I visit Calgary too, there is no comparison.. When I walk around Calgary I feel like I am in a big(er) city, but don't get that feeling in Edmonton.
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  #90  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 6:44 PM
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Originally Posted by north 42 View Post
You really think St Johns has a better skyline than Windsor? To me it looks like a stunted skyline in a city of maybe 100,000. Windsor's tallest is 113 m, you can't even get close to that in St Johns.
I hear you - Windsor has far more buildings that you could consider a skyscraper, although the two cities are about as different as you can get in Canada. There might be more people living in downtown Windsor, but the I could consider the downtown of St. John's more dense, it is a very lively city for its size.

The biggest issue with St. John's, "growing up", is the amount of buildings and land that are considered historic - it's actually depressing to see the amount of projects that the St. John's City council turns down, while they allow a complete uncontrolled suburbanization of any land around the city.
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  #91  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 6:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodthings View Post
What did I miss?

Hyper Super Duper Extremely Way Too Much Legendary Beyond The Most Heavenly Overachievers Possible in the Entirety of the Universe:
- Vancouver, Toronto, Calgary

Overachievers:
- Halifax, Regina, Yellowknife, Niagara Falls

Just OK:
- Edmonton, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Hamilton, Moncton, Victoria (can build more and/or taller to overachieve)
- Burnaby, Mississauga (can clump buildings together to overachieve)

There's this something that's a little uncomfortable:
- St. John's, Saint John, St. Catharines, Saguenay, Montreal, Kelowna, London

Underwhelming:
- Fort McMurray, Thunder Bay, Windsor, Surrey, Laval, Longueuil, Barrie, Kingston, Fredericton, Red Deer, Prince George, Lethbridge, Quebec City, Trois-Rivieres
- Whitehorse (I understand though since the airport is above them)
- Ottawa (I understand since no building should be taller than the Peace Tower)

Desperately needs to AT LEAST create:
- Sudbury, Sault Ste. Marie, Kitchener-Waterloo, Guelph, Peterborough, Kamloops
- Vaughan (coming soon), Markham, and many more suburban cities and large towns.
- Brampton (come on, your population is approaching Mississauga's and yet you have none to show)
I think Regina probably has the most impressive skyline for the size of the city, I think they have a better skyline then Halifax and it's a much smaller city.
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  #92  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 6:57 PM
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Originally Posted by MrChills View Post
I hear you - Windsor has far more buildings that you could consider a skyscraper, although the two cities are about as different as you can get in Canada. There might be more people living in downtown Windsor, but the I could consider the downtown of St. John's more dense, it is a very lively city for its size.

The biggest issue with St. John's, "growing up", is the amount of buildings and land that are considered historic - it's actually depressing to see the amount of projects that the St. John's City council turns down, while they allow a complete uncontrolled suburbanization of any land around the city.
St Johns looks like a great city to visit, I would love to go there. I'm just really surprised that it's downtown skyline is so stubby. It would look great with a few larger highrises mixed in, especially with the beautiful setting it's in.

Windsor's skyline does indeed need some density and a few more highrises mixed in to make it look less linear. We have a stretch of towers along the riverfront and also a stretch along our mainstreet, with a few highrises scattered around the rest of the core. Just a few more buildings strategically placed would do wonders for the city.
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  #93  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 7:00 PM
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Originally Posted by PoscStudent View Post
I think Regina probably has the most impressive skyline for the size of the city, I think they have a better skyline then Halifax and it's a much smaller city.
I find Halifax, Regina and London all have pretty good skylines for their sizes, with Regina doing the best when their population is considdered.
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  #94  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 7:18 PM
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Here is a picture of Regina's skyline, from another thread, and a picture of St. John's. While the gap between the population of the CMAs has increased in the last few years in 2006 Regina only had about 13,000 more residents then St. John's, their city is however a lot larger then the city of St. John's and denser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Migs View Post
I am very anxious to get this same shot later this spring when Wascana Lake is melted and when the trees are blooming, its looks too drab right now. But the skyline is still great.


Source
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  #95  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 7:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bolognium View Post

It's just the thought of a skyline "punching above its weight" that seems stupid to me, since there are so many other factors which have an equal impact
Your point is valid bolognium, but I started the thread on the merits of whether or not a city's skyline at first glance either does or doesn't represent the true population of a city in everyone's eyes, just based on height and density. Things like geography should be omitted, and I also mentioned cities under 500,000 and yet people keep bringing up a city's natural geography and cities like Edmonton so it's going off track a bit.

Oh bolognium, in London's defense I am impressed by London's momentum in the last 5 years and living in Windsor I'm a bit envious. You being our nearest neighbour (of cities over 100,000) Windsor looks to London alot and I think our city can learn from watching your city. It's obvious the steps taken to increase density in London's core are working and we applaud London for that, Windsor can only hope to emulate the same accomplishments.

I also enjoyed London last time I went there. I saw the old brewery house I think it was? (right downtown) and then wandered into the Eldon house, very cool!

Last edited by Symz; Jan 4, 2012 at 8:00 PM.
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  #96  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 7:49 PM
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St. John's is an underperformer for many reasons; height restrictions, heritage restrictions, fear of being "like Toronto", a previously poor economy, and a tradition of home ownership which strongly favours suburban development over apartment living.


A good way to compare skylines statistically would be to figure out the number of highrises in a city per capita. Although not exactly the same thing, this would probably coincide with the actual perception of the skyline of the city.
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  #97  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 8:07 PM
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A good way to compare skylines statistically would be to figure out the number of highrises in a city per capita. Although not exactly the same thing, this would probably coincide with the actual perception of the skyline of the city.
What is the actual height which defines a structure being a high rise over mid rise? If it's too high, St. John's could have none.
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  #98  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 8:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MrChills View Post
I always thought Windsor had an impressive skyline, very impressive for a city of around 200,000.. To compare two cities, Windsor and St. John's, NL (I've lived in both places for numerous years) and they have similar population but no comparison in skylines. Windsors only looks small when you compare it to the neighbour across the river.
A few examples of the contrast. (Sorry, these pics are huge, but kind of have to be to emphasize the point)

Windsor & Detroit


source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/docsear...n/photostream/

source: photo is not mine, lost the source, but was taken during the Red Bull Air Races

I origionally started the thread after I was thinking about Windsor and how it's downtown is plagued with empty lots that have long sat undeveloped. It got me to thinking of what Windsor could be like if the city was actually able to get these lots developed. It left me thinking the city could look like a more substantial city than what it looks now if it was able to develp these properties and add density.

Windsor's height is not bad and having people take photos from the water or from the waterfront in Detroit makes the skyline seem taller than it is. The buildings along Riverside drive in downtown Windsor are sitting probably atleast 40ft above the water line.

Last edited by Symz; Jan 4, 2012 at 8:33 PM.
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  #99  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 8:29 PM
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The really odd thing is Edmonton tends to be a few years behind Calgary when it comes to booming and behind Calgary when it comes to busting. The preliminary oil patch works starts up in Calgary and then it takes a year for that to translate to manufacturing in Edmonton, likewise when things cool down it takes a year or so for stuff to finish being built. This is clearly a departure form that trend, making it very interesting

“The metropolitan area of Edmonton has generated more jobs than any other metropolitan area in the country — 44,900 jobs in the past 12 months,” Rose told an economics conference Thursday.

Edmonton definitely had a good year for job growth, but most of this is just tied to upgraders etc northeast of the city and some new industrial parks. There hasn't even been a single condo/commercial tower break ground downtown for a couple of years.



The spread has gone down too from Nov 2010-2011 Edm gained 40,500 vs. Calgary 35,600 after Calgary had a really good month in November.

Calgary's becoming more recognized and earning a lot more positive attention than Edm. The city is forecasted to have the highest growth rates from 2012-2015. Downtown Calgary is gearing up for another boom right away too, so most definately Calgary will continue to grow faster population wise.

http://www.calgary.ca/CA/fs/Document...ew-2011-11.pdf
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  #100  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2012, 8:37 PM
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By global standards, I don't see how Montreal could at all be seen as having an under-performing skyline for a city of 4 million.

Its the same size as Detroit, Phoenix, Melbourne, Naples, Brasilia, Berlin, Cape Town, Athens, Medellin, Casablanca, and a whole bunch more. And I'd say Montreal has a better skyline than all of those, though perhaps size-wise comparable to some of the South American and Chinese cities in that range.

Most Canadian cities are definitely "overachievers" in this regard.
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