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  #1  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 2:28 PM
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The GTA Economy

A thread devoted to all economic news related to Toronto and the GTA. Feel free to post news articles, discuss topics, whatever.

One request, could we keep the condo news separate, as the rest of this forum is pretty condo-centric it would be nice to have a place where we can discuss the actual economy not the health of the residential market.

Last edited by LeftCoaster; Jan 27, 2012 at 6:06 PM.
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  #2  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 2:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caltrane74 View Post
Toronto is not Ontario.

Toronto is actually leading the Canadian cities on combined economic indicators as per CIBC. No oil here so the only thing that keeps us afloat is pure unbridaled capitalism, sheer numbers and forces of will. Of course the fact the global elite are all parking their money here helps too.
Actually it's oil that is keeping Toronto afloat too. Much of the growth of the finance sector over the last decade has been riding on the coat tails of investment in Alberta.

Toronto relies on the oil sands almost as much as Alberta.

Last edited by LeftCoaster; Jan 27, 2012 at 6:07 PM.
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  #3  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 2:52 PM
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^ No it isn't. International finance is what's keeping Toronto afloat.

I hope aA doesn't touch another building that will be making an impact until their architects go back to kindergarten and find some creativity.

My 4 year old cousin can take a jenga block and plop it down somewhere. Maybe aA is hiring interns?
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  #4  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 2:57 PM
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And what do you think all those busy little banker bees are working on downtown? Equity financing for textiles companies in Mumbai?

No, they are structuring deals and securing financing for O&G companies.

Without the oil sands Toronto would not be enjoying the boom it is right now.

Period.
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  #5  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 3:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
Actually it's oil that is keeping Toronto afloat too. Much of the growth of the finance sector over the last decade has been riding on the coat tails of investment in Alberta.

Toronto relies on the oil sands almost as much as Alberta.

That was supposed to be our secret.

What gives guy?
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  #6  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 3:58 PM
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And of course on the flipside, 90% of Calgary's residents can trace their roots back to Ontario....

So really, Calgary is merely a suburb of Toronto.
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  #7  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 4:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbandreamer View Post
And of course on the flipside, 90% of Calgary's residents can trace their roots back to Ontario....

So really, Calgary is merely a suburb of Toronto.
or the biggest city in Atlantic Canada.
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  #8  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 4:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post

Without the oil sands Toronto would not be enjoying the boom it is right now.

Period.
Really? Toronto represents one sixth of the countries labour force. Almost none of the people here work in the oil industry. The big six banks making money off their investments have very little to contribute to the local economy unless you can prove most Torontonians work for banks though I doubt you'll be able to do that. Toronto's diverse economy means it's more stable then to just rely on one industry for it's growth. If that were true we'd be seeing more office buildings going up to house all of the new banking jobs that only deal with the oil sands. That's just not the case sorry. I love how people write comments here then end it by typing PERIOD thinking that makes it right. Pretty funny.

CIBC - “The consistently strong performance of Toronto reflects the growing diversity of the city’s economic engine,” wrote the bank’s deputy chief economist Benjamin Tal. Though the labour market “is showing signs of fatigue, the quality of employment continues to improve.”

Hmmm doesn't really sound like they were saying Toronto's strength comes from what's being done in Northern Alberta.

You can read the article here but you probably won't wan't to . < look I didn't spell that dot at the end of my sentence.
Bouncing back from recession, Toronto leads Canada’s growth - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...rticle2307960/
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  #9  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 5:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D View Post
The big six banks making money off their investments have very little to contribute to the local economy unless you can prove most Torontonians work for banks though I doubt you'll be able to do that.
Well according to the Brookings institute it's far and away the largest sector contributing to over 40% of Toronto's overall economic output. (http://www.brookings.edu/info/global...onitormap.aspx)

Regardless of that, saying Toronto has a diverse economy does not disprove what I said, not is it in-congruent with the fact that Toronto's current boom is fueled by the oil sands.

The oil sands are a growth engine. They are at the top of the pyramid, feeding down to many other industries. the extra employment needed to finance the oil sands is fueling countless other industries below it and beside it.

I'm not saying without the oil sands Toronto would collapse, far from it, but it is providing that extra cream on top that is really fueling the extraordinary growth we are seeing right now.
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  #10  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 5:18 PM
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Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post

Regardless of that, saying Toronto has a diverse economy does not disprove what I said, not is it in-congruent with the fact that Toronto's current boom is fueled by the oil sands.

Sure it does, if Toronto was relying on the oil sands it would not be a diverse economy now would it? Toronto's strength is it's people, the fact that we grow by almost 100,000 people a year has very very little to do with the oilsands. The oilsands are one of many things the banks have invested in. Toronto ranks 12th in the latest Global Financial Centres ranking (March 2010). Toronto performs particularly well in the People sub-index, where it is in 6th place, and in the Asset Management and Professional Services sub-indices, where it is 9th place in both categories. Toronto is also profiled as one of the 8 "Global Leaders" based on the breadth and depth of its financial services activity and connections with other financial centres.

To think we rely on just one industry in our economy to support our boom and massive population growth is not only funny but absurd.

btw - 1 in 20 Torontonians work in the financial market, according to you they must all be working on some sort of oilsands file. Hope nobody needs to get a loan or a mortgage, they won't find anyone that can spare anytime for them.
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  #11  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 5:24 PM
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When it comes to the dynamics how of different industries buttress each other, it's hard to make clear delineations. This debate will not go anywhere fruitful.
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  #12  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 5:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D View Post
Sure it does, if Toronto was relying on the oil sands it would not be a diverse economy now would it? Toronto's strength is it's people, the fact that we grow by almost 100,000 people a year has very very little to do with the oilsands. The oilsands are one of many things the banks have invested in. Toronto ranks 12th in the latest Global Financial Centres ranking (March 2010). Toronto performs particularly well in the People sub-index, where it is in 6th place, and in the Asset Management and Professional Services sub-indices, where it is 9th place in both categories. Toronto is also profiled as one of the 8 "Global Leaders" based on the breadth and depth of its financial services activity and connections with other financial centres.

To think we rely on just one industry in our economy to support our boom and massive population growth is not only funny but absurd.

btw - 1 in 20 Torontonians work in the financial market, according to you they must all be working on some sort of oilsands file. Hope nobody needs to get a loan or a mortgage, they won't find anyone that can spare anytime for them.
You just took almost everything I said and either took it out of context or just plain ignored it. Clearly you are not at all interested in listening to what I have to say and frankly given your history I should know better than to attempt to have a rational discussion with you that involves any negative connotations of Toronto.

Good to see some things never change.

Anyway this is off topic at best so lets just move on. You think Toronto is more or less unaffected by the oil sands and I think it is a major contributor to Toronto's recent growth. Agree to disagree.
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  #13  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 5:53 PM
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Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
Clearly you are not at all interested in listening to what I have to say and frankly given your history I should know better than to attempt to have a rational discussion with you that involves any negative connotations of Toronto.

Too funny you need to revert to insulting. You seem a bit like our mayor, all talk no substance. If you're going to lay claim to something being fact then you really should learn to back it up with some actual proof. You've failed to do so. There are plenty things wrong with T.O, and personally I'd place 3rd in Canada in my personal list of favorite cities after Montreal and Vancouver. Most of our condos are sub-par compared to what Vancouver gets, and we're nowhere near as artsy as our sister Montreal. But if somebody is going to say something stupid, made up and try to pass it off as the truth then yes I will comment.

It looks as though I'll be starting at EA Games soon, you know part of Toronto's booming Gaming/TV/Movie industry. Hopefully I'll be working on that new Oilsand Game.
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  #14  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 5:59 PM
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Look if you're willing to have a constructive discussion about this I'd be more than happy to continue it in the Toronto local. my background is in Business and economics so It's something I spend a lot of time thinking about and love to debate.

I'll move the off topic threads there and if you like we can hash it out in an appropriate venue.
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  #15  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 6:01 PM
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Go for it. If you're willing to discuss the topic without being insulting.
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  #16  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 6:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D View Post
Too funny you need to revert to insulting. You seem a bit like our mayor, all talk no substance. If you're going to lay claim to something being fact then you really should learn to back it up with some actual proof. You've failed to do so. There are plenty things wrong with T.O, and personally I'd place 3rd in Canada in my personal list of favorite cities after Montreal and Vancouver. Most of our condos are sub-par compared to what Vancouver gets, and we're nowhere near as artsy as our sister Montreal. But if somebody is going to say something stupid, made up and try to pass it off as the truth then yes I will comment.

It looks as though I'll be starting at EA Games soon, you know part of Toronto's booming Gaming/TV/Movie industry. Hopefully I'll be working on that new Oilsand Game.
I'm a lawyer and my brother is in real estate investment. We're both based in downtown Toronto and have no direct involvement in the oil sands, but you can bet that the majority of our investments are in oil, gas and drilling companies based in Alberta.

Wealth and income flows from one industry to another in a multitude of ways. It's not as black and white as you're making it out to be.
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  #17  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 6:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Ramako View Post
I'm a lawyer and my brother is in real estate investment. We're both based in downtown Toronto and have no direct involvement in the oil sands, but you can bet that the majority of our investments are in oil, gas and drilling companies based in Alberta.

Wealth and income flows from one industry to another in a multitude of ways. It's not as black and white as you're making it out to be.
Who is disputing that? It's also not the only game in town though. To say it's the key factor of Toronto's economy makes absolutely no sense. Oil is not the only thing that we get out of the ground.
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  #18  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 6:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
A thread devoted to all economic news related to Toronto and the GTA. Feel free to post news articles, discuss topics, whatever.

One request, could we keep the condo news separate, as the rest of this forum is pretty condo-centric it would be nice to have a place where we can discuss the actual economy not the health of the residential market.
Great idea LC.
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  #19  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 6:22 PM
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First off let me apologize for saying you were unwilling to discuss this rationally, it was uncalled for. i did it because you seem to be twisting what I am saying and ignoring key points what I am posting which I find extremely frustrating. Perhaps it is my fault for not properly articulating my argument. i will try to be very clear here, and do not mistake it for me patronizing you, I am just trying to be as clear as possible to avoid any confusion.

Moving on, let me be very clear I am not saying that the entire Toronto economy is running off the oil sands, not even close. Toronto's economy is quite healthy and diverse, you will never catch me arguing the inverse.

What I did say was that the majority of the growth of the finance sector has been thanks to the oil sands. I dont have hard evidence to back me up, but I just finished a degree where the majority of my peers are now working in finance, predominantly i-banking and consulting, and when we talk shop the majority of what they are working on is energy related. It is somewhat logical however that this is true if you consider the following:

No doubt there is a ton of mining and traditional commerce functions still being performed by the banks, but those industries have not seen major growth lately so they have stayed at similar sizes within the banks. An industry that has seen major growth in Canada however is the energy sector, and hence where the banks have seen major growth is in the energy sector. So while the traditional areas are still important, much of the growth of our financial services has been due to energy.

An example, say the bank employs 1,000 people in year 1, 800 in traditional markets and 200 in energy and in year 2 they employ 1200 people, 850 in traditional markets and 350 in energy. The banks still saw good growth and are still healthy in their traditional markets, but the majority of their growth has come from energy.

Now this is just the banks sure, but it is important to note that there are a few top down industries in every economy, that fuel many of the other industries. In Calgary it is O&G, in Vancouver it is Mining and in Toronto the largest of these industries is finance. And while not everyone is working in finance the majority of Torontonians owe their employ to finance, as most other white collar professions work along side the banks, the entertainment industry is supported by wages of bankers and said white collar workers, construction workers build the condos for the white collars entertainment industry etc... It all trickles down from the upper industries.

So while without the oil sands I think Toronto's economy would still be fine as it is diverse and healthy, I'm saying that the majority of the exceptional growth we have seen lately is due to the oil sands. And that isn't a bad thing, it is important for cities to capitalize on booms like this, and the fact that Toronto can from thousands of miles away is amazing IMO.
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  #20  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 6:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
And what do you think all those busy little banker bees are working on downtown? Equity financing for textiles companies in Mumbai?

No, they are structuring deals and securing financing for O&G companies.

Without the oil sands Toronto would not be enjoying the boom it is right now.

Period.
Toronto has been growing at almost the same steady rate since the 70's, back when nobody knew what the oil sands were. The banks deal with so much more then just the oil sands in Alberta. They did not become the most stable banks on the planet by putting all of their eggs in one basket. That would be risky investing.

For Example RBC Canada's largest bank has invested $2.3 billion in the Oilsands but if you step back and look at the company as a whole it's worth 726.206 billion (2010) in the assets it owns. So technically the Oilsands only represent a small portion of it's portfolio. The oil sands are a huge money maker for a country with a small population like Canada, but it's nowhere near being the big banks prime source of income. It's one of many investments in their huge portfolios.

TD - Value - $619.545 Billion CAD (2010)
OS Investment - $8 Billion

Scotia Bank - value - $619.545 Billion CAD (2010)
OS investment - $10 Billion
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