Why isn't St. James Street a One-Way?

[MrGrinch]

Does this make any sense? As the commercial development in the St. James area has outstripped the roadway infrastructure, I’ve often wondered why the city couldn’t make St. James exclusively northbound and Empress exclusively southbound. I think it would help so much to alleviate traffic snarls in the polo Park area. It’s virtually impossible to drive in the median lanes on St. James without someone turning left in front of you and backing up traffic for kilometers. Empress has been altered by creating no-turning times, but I question if that is the best solution as well? The creation of two separate one-ways would go so far to improving flow. I had previously discussed this with Jae Eadie but his only response was that he’d looked into it previously and that it was not feasible. Anyone have any thoughts on this or any other suggestions on how to improve flow in the PP area?

[1ajs]

because empris dead ends at domion bridge's yard and st james keeps going to notre dame

[MrGrinch]

That's a good point. I guess one could consider that Empress also connects to Notre Dame via Saskatchewan / Midland and those could be made one-ways as well. But I suppose that would really suck if you happened to work at one of those businesses on Midland and routinely needed to go inbound on Notre Dame (you'd have to go north on St. James to Notre Dame which would add a few minutes to your drive). Personally I still think it's not a bad idea.

[1ajs]

logistical nightmare though the city is curently siezing domion bridge for back tax's

[grumpy old man]

It makes sense though to make that change. Everybody would adapt and I think traffic flow will be much improved...

[Jets4Life]

I like that idea.

[myuglyface]

[QUOTE=MrGrinch;4639414]Does this make any sense? As the commercial development in the St. James area has outstripped the roadway infrastructure, I’ve often wondered why the city couldn’t make St. James exclusively northbound and Empress exclusively southbound.
The old abandoned RR line should have also been made into a one way roadway (too skinny?) along with all the others between the creek and Route 90. Make St Mathews (extend it between St. James and Route 90) and Ellice one ways between Route 90 and Erin/Wall. I am assuming the streets downtown became congested with the arrival of more personal automobile ownership which brought about extensive one ways downtown. Well Polo Park is the new downtown shopping area.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by myuglyface

The old abandoned RR line should have also been made into a one way roadway (too skinny?) along with all the others between the creek and Route 90. Make St Mathews (extend it between St. James and Route 90) and Ellice one ways between Route 90 and Erin/Wall. I am assuming the streets downtown became congested with the arrival of more personal automobile ownership which brought about extensive one ways downtown. Well Polo Park is the new downtown shopping area.

The abandoned roadway was too skinny to make room for a new road. It would have made a perfect bike trail, or LRT route though. Too bad they turned most of the land into parking lots for big box stores.

as for St.Matthews, I don't think it can be done, as there is a strip mall blocking the way. They just built Silver Ave through to St James, so I think it wouldn't serve much purpose.

[h0twired]

St. James and Empress should DEFINITELY be opposing one way streets.

[drew]

I'm not sure how much one-ways would help. It still would be a nightmare turning left onto these streets from Ellice, Sargent, Silver, etc. which is my biggest pet peeve of that area.

I think a big help would simply be widening Empress to 4 lanes, to take more pressure off St. James. Although that could be a non-starter as there is a creek on one side and businesses on the other preventing expansion.

[Spocket]

Lots of reasons but mostly because it wouldn't actually solve any problems.

[Kinguni]

Widen St. James to add turning lanes up to Ellice, and then add turning lanes at all major intersections. Same thing for Ellice from St. James to Empress. They talked about doing it years ago but the City wanted the developers to pay for it so nothing got done.

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by drew

I'm not sure how much one-ways would help. It still would be a nightmare turning left onto these streets from Ellice, Sargent, Silver, etc. which is my biggest pet peeve of that area.

I think a big help would simply be widening Empress to 4 lanes, to take more pressure off St. James. Although that could be a non-starter as there is a creek on one side and businesses on the other preventing expansion.

That drainage "creek" (it is not natural) could simily be replaced by a underground drainage line and thus allowing Empress to be expaned.

[rypinion]

Originally Posted by newflyer

That drainage "creek" (it is not natural) could simily be replaced by a underground drainage line and thus allowing Empress to be expaned.

It may have been artificially straightened to go right along Empress and such, but I'm certain it was originally a natural creek. I'm also pretty sure both the source for the creek and where it enters the Assiniboine is natural.

Here is one quote I found, from http://www.naturenorth.com/winter/omandck/Fomck.html:

Omand's Creek is one of several small waterways that run through the City of Winnipeg. It originates to the northwest of the city, near the town of Rosser, and flows southwestwardly to meet up with the Assiniboine River near the centre of the city. The present day creek is really a hybrid, formed when the former Colony Creek, which flowed into the heart of the downtown area of Winnipeg, was diverted into the channel of the much smaller Omand's Creek.

[1ajs]

newflyerer that creak floods prity good in the sping and would require one hell of a pipe to build at witch the coast would not be worth doing at this point we when have sewerlines colapsing and such witch the city is working on replacing also this would require one hell of a searies of leift stations were better of leaving the creak alone at this point its probly planned to be done in the next 15yrs though

also we could use it as a transit coridoor.... city could take domion bridge site and build a maintance depot there witch means we could do the airport and rrc notre dame campus witch we could probly set up a training program through rrc to maintain the lrt trains

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

newflyerer that creak floods prity good in the sping and would require one hell of a pipe to build at witch the coast would not be worth doing at this point we when have sewerlines colapsing and such witch the city is working on replacing also this would require one hell of a searies of leift stations were better of leaving the creak alone at this point its probly planned to be done in the next 15yrs though

There are many cities with underground drainage lines. One example that comes to mind is Manhattan, which replaced actual rivers with underground lines. Moving the Empress ditch would not be a cutting edge idea. Although it could be allowed to surface again around the Blue Cross building, so it could maintain its natural look south of Portage Ave into the river.

I believe that drainage ditch was built many decades ago as a means to drain farmlands. There were many such "creeks" built in southern Manitoba to improve drainage. Keep in mind there used to be a great deal of marshlands in area, that were drained for farms by settlers and later by urban developers.

[rypinion]

Originally Posted by newflyer

I believe that drainage ditch was built many decades ago as a means to drain farmlands. There were many such "creeks" built in southern Manitoba to improve drainage. Keep in mind there used to be a great deal of marshlands in area, that were drained for farms by settlers and later by urban developers.

Go ahead and believe that, but from what I can find Omand's Creek used to be called Catfish Creek, and appears to be quite a landmark for settlers and travellers of the west in the early 1800's. I've seen no evidence that the creek is man made and built by these same settlers.

Some examples:

From: http://www.scribd.com/doc/13350602/B...ven-Oaks-Final

June 18 to 19, 1816: Cuthbert Grant's party was mounted and traveling east along the Assiniboine River, they had two carts and canoes with 15 bags of pemmican. He brought the canoes ashore at Sturgeon Creek and they proceeded overland to Catfish Creek (now Omand's Creek) then headed north to Frog Plain. He reached Catfish Creek on the late afternoon of the nineteenth; a location three miles west of the forks.

From: http://winnipegtimemachine.blogspot....es-church.html

Rev Taylor would travel to the church on horseback and sometimes had trouble getting through the thick sticky muck of Catfish creek now Omands creek. He named it St James and St James became the name for the entire area west.

From: http://www.mhs.mb.ca/docs/pageant/05/aladdin.shtml

But when you have gone about three miles west from Main Street, and are all ready to point out the new overpass and the Shopping Centre and the Auditorium, one man may suddenly say, "But surely that is Catfish Creek — and St. James Church beyond."

Also, here is a map of the area from June 1816, showing Catfish Creek: http://www.flickr.com/photos/manitobamaps/3010231147/

This doesn't seem to me to be a drainage ditch built by farmers. Unless by "decades ago" you mean "over twenty decades ago", Omand's creek is much older than you think.

[1ajs]

all they did was aline it


interesting to see the sain used to be called the little river

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by rypinion

Go ahead and believe that, but from what I can find Omand's Creek used to be called Catfish Creek, and appears to be quite a landmark for settlers and travellers of the west in the early 1800's. I've seen no evidence that the creek is man made and built by these same settlers.

Some examples:

From: http://www.scribd.com/doc/13350602/B...ven-Oaks-Final


From: http://winnipegtimemachine.blogspot....es-church.html


From: http://www.mhs.mb.ca/docs/pageant/05/aladdin.shtml


Also, here is a map of the area from June 1816, showing Catfish Creek: http://www.flickr.com/photos/manitobamaps/3010231147/

This doesn't seem to me to be a drainage ditch built by farmers. Unless by "decades ago" you mean "over twenty decades ago", Omand's creek is much older than you think.

Gee your map shows a very short creek .... which looks it runs a short distance. How do you expain the long straight portion leading out of town to the agricultural lands. Or how Colony Creek was redirected down a man made channel to what is now Omands Creek. I am also sure you'll be very efficient at finding a map which shows the marsh lands in the area, pre-settlement. I wonder how that land was drained, or how the WAA drains its land today. While drainage was common during settlement, it still occurs today in Rosser and in many areas of southern Manitoba.

This is all besides the point. The point is the short natural portion of the creek can be maintained, while the man made portion can be moved below ground, as they have done in many other cities, including NYC. This will allow the city to widen Empress, which was the original point of the thread.

[rypinion]

Originally Posted by newflyer

This is all besides the point.

My point was that you said that Omand's Creek was a drainage ditch and was not natural, and I was simply pointing out that is not an accurate statement. That was my only point. My two posts had nothing to do with whether it should be paved over with a road or not.

Somehow you continue to argue despite being shown many valid sources. I mentioned right in my first post that it was likely aligned and certainly combined with Colony Creek.