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Old Posted May 4, 2015, 5:17 PM
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A 3-Part Plan to Rebuild New York's Old Penn Station

A 3-Part Plan to Rebuild New York's Old Penn Station


May 4th, 2015

By ERIC JAFFE

Read More: http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/...tation/392261/

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.....

Richard Cameron and James Grimes of the architecture and design firm Atelier & Co., in Brooklyn, have developed a plan to rebuild New York City's old Penn Station in all its former glory.

- A rebuilt Penn Station would give New York back its monumental gateway of which it was robbed in 1963. Today’s train passengers are required to navigate a depressing warren of gloomy passages instead of passing through McKim’s sequence of inspiring vaulted spaces.

- The first task of a Rebuilt Penn Station would be … rebuilding Penn Station. Labine points to 353 original McKim Mead & White drawings in the archives of the New York Historical Society to "jump-start the design process." There are also plenty of other photographs that capture the 84 Doric columns, and the spacious concourse and its glass canopy, and the vaulted ceiling of the marble waiting room that Labine writes "never failed to impress and uplift anyone who entered."

- The original Penn Station was meant primarily for intercity train passengers. But it's the local transit riders using the subway, New Jersey Transit, and Long Island Railroad who account for most of the hub's passenger action today. In any rebuilt Penn Station, "service areas for these daily commuters must take top priority," writes Labine.

- A new emphasis on local transit would get easier with the completion of Moynihan Station—the new Amtrak passenger area being built across the street from Penn. Moynihan isn't fully funded yet, but even if it's completed, writes Labine, there will still be half a million travelers using Penn Station every day.

- The third leg of the Rebuilt Penn Station plan is to turn the immediate surrounding area into a "beautiful urban ensemble," writes Labine, an effort that involves "creating a great urban outdoor room on the north side of the station." Such a plan would fit in well with new developer interest in improving the Penn Station neighborhood. It would also mean relocating Madison Square Garden, which sits atop the station—a shift that seems to be in the making anyway, given the time running out on the arena's lease.

- All told, the Atelier plan is expected to cost some $2.5 billion. That's a steep cost for an effort that wouldn't do anything to improve the biggest mobility issue facing Penn Station: tunnel capacity under the Hudson River. But it's not out of line with some of the other transportation mega-projects taking plan in New York at the moment, and it would rectify what Labine calls "one of the greatest civic blunders ever committed."

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  #2  
Old Posted May 4, 2015, 5:36 PM
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Old Penn Station Resurrected? That would be the greatest thing since...almost anything.
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Old Posted May 5, 2015, 7:02 AM
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Shouldn't this be filed under fantasy? Never gonna happen
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Old Posted May 27, 2017, 11:39 PM
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A Dramatic Plan To Rebuild Penn Station & Restore Its Lost Grandeur

Read More: http://gothamist.com/2017/05/26/rebu...nn_station.php

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In recent weeks, Governor Andrew Cuomo has expressed increasing frustration with the state of affairs at the station. A "Summer of Agony," he's now predicting, for a "literally crumbling" station not expected to improve "for the foreseeable future."

- On Tuesday, the governor called for the creation of a task force dedicated to coming up with an "aggressive action plan," and is proposing that the state wrest control of Penn Station from Amtrak. His other big idea has been slammed by the Times architecture critic as offering "hardly more than cosmetic changes," a view echoed recently by the paper's editorial board. --- That proposal involves turning the decaying James Farley Post Office Eighth Avenue into a new train hall for Amtrak, which would help only 20 percent of the station's 650,000 daily commuters, according to an Empire State Development study. Penn, meanwhile, would get wider concourses, new security tech, and a slightly raised ceiling fit with LED lights meant to imitate a blue sky.

- One of the most ambitious visions—a cooperative effort between an architecture firm, the National Civic Art Society, and an urban planning think tank—would have Penn Station rebuilt in its former image, while crucially revising the Gateway Plan to reimagine the transit terminal as a through running station. --- The restoration of this godly entrance has been the project of Richard Cameron, the principle designer at Atelier & Co, since the 1990s. In his "Plan To Rebuild Penn Station,". He says, would be restoring the original station's enormous open space, including its classical columns, high vaulted ceilings and thick glass floors that brought light four stories underground. The middle phase, a project of a separate think tank, would see the construction of a modern transit network connecting the station's various trains.

- The third phase would be to redevelop the area in and around Penn Station, with the intention of making the station a tourist attraction similar to Grand Central Terminal. --- While Cameron has championed the plan for decades, the idea was given new life after Cuomo announced his intention to overhaul the decrepit station last year. The National Civic Art Society has since thrown its support behind Rebuild Penn, campaigning for the original design while assisting with some "modifications to suit the needs of the present day." "One of our ideas is to convert the original carriageways into covered arcades that could house outdoor markets, cafes, various retail stores," said Justin Shubow, president of the National Civic Art Society.

- That price tag doesn't include the relocation of Madison Square Garden, another hurdle that proponents of the Rebuild Penn plan see as conquerable. The arena is owned by the Madison Square Garden Company, which since 1982 has enjoyed a yearly tax exemption—last year it was nearly $50 million—in exchange for not relocating to New Jersey. But Cameron speculates that "if someone let them take the tax credit, they’d move in a second." The most pressing obstacle right now, according to advocates, has to do with Albany. "It's amazing how defeatist their attitude is," said Cameron. "It's entirely possible to do this, and it really is a question of someone like Cuomo deciding that this is going to be his legacy project."

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Old Posted May 28, 2017, 4:51 AM
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Originally Posted by CIA View Post
Shouldn't this be filed under fantasy? Never gonna happen
Yeah because in NYC, it would cost $10B.
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Old Posted May 28, 2017, 6:53 AM
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Originally Posted by M II A II R II K View Post

While Atelier and Co. seems obsessed about recreating Penn Station down to the most exacting detail, someone might want to point out to them that April 12, 2024 falls on a Friday, not a Monday. Details.

Last edited by Mister Uptempo; May 28, 2017 at 10:31 AM.
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Old Posted May 28, 2017, 12:20 PM
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Yeah because in NYC, it would cost $10B.
Exactly. I wonder what the original cost and how long it took to build? Guaranteed a replacement would cost 10x (adjusting for inflation of course) as much and take twice as long. And for all that it would likely end up as a cheap knock off with fake marble and steel that starts rusting after a few years.
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Old Posted May 29, 2017, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by BrownTown View Post
Exactly. I wonder what the original cost and how long it took to build? Guaranteed a replacement would cost 10x (adjusting for inflation of course) as much and take twice as long. And for all that it would likely end up as a cheap knock off with fake marble and steel that starts rusting after a few years.
...10x? Really? ~$1.5 billion is perfectly doable, even in NYC.

The real question is whether the city 1) has to buy out MSG, 2) can conduct a 'land-swap' with MSG, and/or 3) 're-capture' and transfer air rights over the stations (ex MSG).

Considering it's technically in the Hudson Yards Tax District, and that the city may end up with a rather significant amount of land around a redeveloped PABT, they may be able to be somewhat creative

Anyways, this doesn't call for a whole lot of tunneling or excavating all that much - that's what the MTA sucks at.

Hell, it would even be happening in the context of a Moynihan/Farley station, which would minimize a great deal of disruptions for passengers.
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Old Posted May 29, 2017, 2:08 AM
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Rebuilding Penn Station would be the sexiest thing since....sex itself
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  #10  
Old Posted May 29, 2017, 4:07 AM
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Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
...10x? Really? ~$1.5 billion is perfectly doable, even in NYC.
I don't know about that. Even the Toronto Union Station renovation is costing over $1 billion. And it does nowhere near the ridership of Penn.
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Old Posted May 29, 2017, 4:35 AM
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Hell. Yes.
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  #12  
Old Posted May 29, 2017, 6:41 PM
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There is no way that reconstructing the old Penn Station is going to cost just 1,5 billion dollars. Just look at what cost the Calatrava hub, 4 Billion, or the Fulton Transit Center, over 2 Billion. And that is only talking about the cost of the actual construction, Not talking in account the cost of acquiring real state that not only includes MSG, but also a large office building.

Just the stone used in the original station would have an enormous cost today. Besides the added cost and complications of building it above a very busy train station.

The demolition of the original Penn Station was a tragedy, but don't expect it to be rebuilt.
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Old Posted May 29, 2017, 6:45 PM
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Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
...10x? Really? ~$1.5 billion is perfectly doable, even in NYC.
It's not even close to doable, just look at the cost of Fulton Center or the PATH terminal. Hell, you would be lucky to even acquire and demolish MSG for 1.5 Billion, let alone to build anything in its place. I see no way this costs less than $5 Billion given NYCs current astronomical infrastructure costs.
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Old Posted May 30, 2017, 4:48 PM
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we are already well on the path of rebuilding penn in part by way of the farley post office conversion. that will be spectacular when it is completed.

if anyone can ever get msg out of there i can think of better use of that property than a replica old penn station, which i doubt could ever be truly replicated in any kind of quality materials.

certainly to do anything at the least you would need the air rights $$$ and building over it to be able to afford redoing the crappy station levels below.

so while the station may get some light and air below someday in a redesign it will also definately get a tower or two above.

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Old Posted May 30, 2017, 6:49 PM
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$2.5 billion? Ha!

The new PABT bus terminal will cost $10 billion. A single subway station (admittedly a very grand one - the WTC PATH) cost nearly $5 billion.

A new Penn Station will probably cost around $10-$15 billion, and that's excluding any tunneling/trackwork.
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Old Posted May 30, 2017, 7:46 PM
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Yes please, I will donate all my savings to see this happen. Penn Station being destroyed basically started the preservation movement in the US, and seeing it get rebuilt would be the greatest preservation/restoration achievement of all time.
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Old Posted May 31, 2017, 2:09 PM
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Originally Posted by CCs77 View Post
There is no way that reconstructing the old Penn Station is going to cost just 1,5 billion dollars. Just look at what cost the Calatrava hub, 4 Billion, or the Fulton Transit Center, over 2 Billion. And that is only talking about the cost of the actual construction, Not talking in account the cost of acquiring real state that not only includes MSG, but also a large office building.

Just the stone used in the original station would have an enormous cost today. Besides the added cost and complications of building it above a very busy train station.

The demolition of the original Penn Station was a tragedy, but don't expect it to be rebuilt.
Calatrava's building required new and innovative structural design, and innovative mechanical systems which were partially implemented and then abandoned due to impracticality (the folding wings), plus exacting tolerances for minimal aesthetic effect, etc. etc.

Old Penn was basically a bunch of steel beams and big rocks stacked on top of each other, with some plaster on the inside. (and the foundations are still there!)

I think it's more doable than anyone is willing to admit...
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Old Posted May 31, 2017, 10:37 PM
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I think it's more doable than anyone is willing to admit...
The problem isn't that it would be hard to build it's that NYC is completely incompetent when it comes to building any infrastructure project on budget.
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Old Posted Jun 1, 2017, 3:25 PM
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We should be aware that Farley Post Office was not designed to be a train station.
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  #20  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2017, 3:28 PM
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The problem isn't that it would be hard to build it's that NYC is completely incompetent when it comes to building any infrastructure project on budget.
That would be NY State. MTA is a state agency. PA is a state agency.

Not that I think the City would actually do things on-budget, but they have no real influence over the MTA/PA.
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